The Andy Show – Episode 29

The Andy Show – Episode 29

ANDREW MCLEAN [00:00:57] Good afternoon and welcome to the Friday edition of the Andrew Show brought to you by Disruptive Live. We are live from the sunny suburbs of West London. It’s a beautiful day outside. And today, we’re going to be talking about networking. So networking is obviously very important from data centres, the houses. At the moment, we’re broadcasting this and having to rely on things like home broadband for my connection to go up and my guests’ connection to go up. And it’s very very well. The- before we bring him on, the time is now 12:31, on the 29th of May. Don’t forget you can join us on Disruptive Live, on our LinkedIn, our Twitter and our Facebook and YouTube and Vimeo and our website anyway, enough of my waffling. I’m absolutely delighted to be joined by my giant tech geek friend here, Mr. Daniel Thomas from Axians. Daniel, I say this a lot. I genuinely mean it. It’s a pleasure to have you here on.

DANIEL THOMAS [00:02:06] It’s an honour and a privilege. Believe me, thank you. Hi, Andrew.

ANDREW MCLEAN [00:02:10] So, Daniel, you are… I’ve got to keep because like me, your background is technology. You are a geek. I want to hear your geeky things. So why do we start by you telling us who you are and what you do at Axians?

DANIEL THOMAS [00:02:24] Yeah. Thank you. So, yeah, my name is Daniel Thomas. I am the Head of Solution Development at Axians. I’ve been here for about five years. And what that means as a role really is really to look at, as you say, technology in the distant rise and almost not too far, but just identifying these technologies and more importantly, solutions to really help our customers achieve their goal. So it’s really making sure that we choose the right solution at the right time. I’m bringing that into the business so we can then in turn provide the right level of service to our customers.

ANDREW MCLEAN [00:02:58] And just give us a bit of background on yourself. I’ve heard a story about you tinkering with things back in your youth. Can you give us a little background on your history?

DANIEL THOMAS [00:03:08] Yes. The tinker really was really about technology again. As a youngster, I was always really interested in what technology was. I used to always be breaking things, putting it together just to really understand how things operated. And that’s been a consistent thing throughout my career. So I’ve really come from a background where I started as an engineer. I worked my way up as an engineer. So from engineering on networks and designing networks, I went there managing networks. So managing a team and again really focussed on money services, looking at what we can do. Making sure we got the right level of service on that. And that’s really big progressed from there. They’ve always had an interest in almost a passion. I would say something I’d do outside of work. I know I listen to a podcast and just really keep updated or with that thing in mind, what’s new? What’s coming? And how could we use it? And it’s as a society just as much as a business. So, yeah, it is a bit of a passion of mine, I have to admit. But I’m not a geek.

ANDREW MCLEAN [00:04:11] Come on? Really?. What would you do- you know, even classes out there. I like being called geek, it’s fine. Oh, I we’ll leave that one, will leave that one for later lately. Okay, so you want to talk to me about networking and the thing you want to talk about. And this is a this is something Axians have been saying recently, perhaps even longer about what they call NaaS. Now, I want to start with this by saying I hate acronyms. Now, when I think an NaaS, I’m going to think of what network attached storage, which is kind of old school datacenter stuff. But it’s not it’s not if it’s the same pronunciation, but a different way. You want to tell us what NaaS is?

DANIEL THOMAS [00:04:53] Yeah, sure. I think I want to split in two ways if I can. Because you’re absolutely correct. It’s seen in an industry if used to Google NaaS right now it’s quite broad and it stands for Network as a Service first and foremost. But that could really is quite general. So it could mean a lot of different things. So if you to look at it as a say, you could be just consuming a particular type of network. It could be anything. And so why wouldn’t you want to do is separate that, which is a term that is going to be used in very, very good term. It’s got to as a service on there. And that’s the key part we need to focus on. Rather than talk about NaaS and I’ll go through that but more importantly, I really want to explain what it means from an Axians point of view and our messaging and our narrative about what Network as a Services. Now, what it is to words, is a subscription based service that means organisations can simplify network operations by consuming services for predictive OPEC’s cost model. What does that actually mean? So that means that companies that require the outsourcing of networks. So they’ve identified the fact that, I mean identify maybe through conversation they realise that this is something they want to consider. It’s we consume as a society. We are used to the fact that we can go and buy something. And then if we don’t want it anymore, we can put it back. We can unsubscribe to something if we don’t need anymore, we can cancel. Longer of the days where you have to buy something and own it like a car, for example. This is the typical example I use whereby you can either go and rent the car or you could buy it. You still got that service. So you still got a car. And so we look at as a service models today, we have software as a service. We have the ability to infrastructure as a service. And it’s all about that consumption based model. All NaaS really is an acknowledgement of that. An acknowledgement that businesses now want to consume, just like we do a society through subscriptions that we have today is more the business way of looking at it. So a business way of saying, yes, we want to consume network services without the step to own it. So what we do is Axians is through strong consultation. That’s key to this. Is to understand the real business drive is a real business goals. And so what are you actually trying to achieve? What is your objectives? We will build an infrastructure on your behalf. It’s your network, your network delivered to you as a service. And we do that through understanding what that business means, making sure that we put the right service levels together. And that will then allow the businesses to actually then concentrate on delivering those objectives with the key platform that they’re confident. And that’s a key and a key. We’re confident that they weren’t working with a partner that understands exactly what they’re driving towards. And then we will help deliver that. And that’s broken down into a number of components. So we’ve got the side of the managed services element. So we have a 24 by 7 network operations centre. So the services always open available. Because as I mentioned earlier, the service level agreements are actually very important in this for that confidence and business continuity. And then we also deliver this through sort of a lifecycle management. What that means is we don’t just have some money, so providers will go and deliver something very “CapEx happy” than a walk away almost. And then they’ll come back via renewal time to know a bit more cash. However, we treat it completely differently. It’s very much about that trusted advisor approach. As I mentioned before, understanding the business needs and not leaving it there. In fact, if anything, that’s just a start. We will then continue to have engagement with it, with the customer, make sure we almost want to look at different ways that they can deliver the business using technology. We bring that in, understanding the business side. Have you thought about doing this? We will actually then include it as part of the service and that’s only going to happen through engagement. That’s only going to happen if you’re talking to your customers on a regular basis, really appreciating the differences as they go through as a business. What they start off at point a make change. By the time we get to point B.. So you’re not going to understand that unless you have that regular engagement. So NaaS isn’t any one thing as you can appreciate. It’s not a technology now as it is a methodology. It’s an approach. It’s an acknowledgement that you want to consume services. And we do that. And one of the most important points around NaaS is there’s many good facets of it. One of the key parts that really helps businesses is that it’s an OPEX based model. So what that means, very briefly, is the fact that you don’t have that heavy CapEx that you would then you then have to see that on one side of the balance sheet. And typically you’d buy that. It would sit it would depreciate straight away. So the CFO is that may be listening. It’s not about that. We actually Axians only we lease it back to you and we provide it as an OPEX based models with amortise across the period of the term that we have with yourself. And what that means that it gives them the ability to not have to worry about training of staff. Because again, we work on the margin on your behalf, we’ll understand your business. We’ll be doing that for you. And so that is really an approach, really. It’s not something that it’s not a technology. And I think that’s the key point to make here, that it’s delivered to you as a subscribe service, Axians own the kit. So that mitigates a lot of risk. If something fails, we are the ones that will replace it based on service level guarantees that we will agree upfront. And so that is the most important duty of business continuity. And again, allows the actual business to focus on what they need to focus on. We will actually work in tandem, a focus what we need to do. And between us, it means that hopefully the business will achieve those objectives.

ANDREW MCLEAN [00:10:22] So if I see if I’m Mr. OpsMan and “I feel not missing”. Daniel. Daniel. Daniel, I’ve heard about this network is a service that you Axians doing well, just in very, very simple terms. What would then happen?

DANIEL THOMAS [00:10:38] If it’s fair enough to say what it was about? I would say that it will.

ANDREW MCLEAN [00:10:43] Yeah. So if I have other 5 offices, for example, and I’ve heard about it, I know there is a service and I mean.

DANIEL THOMAS [00:10:49] Of course.

ANDREW MCLEAN [00:10:50] How would it work? Just logistically for a layman, how would this work?

DANIEL THOMAS [00:10:55] Yeah. Well. Consists of four main components. So if you have, let’s say, for example, 52 sites, 55 sites. Hundred sites. And you have regional offices. And you may depending on the vertical or the type of business is what we will provide is the Wi-Fi and the LAN infrastructure? So we’ll manage that on behalf of the customer. Also connecting the branches using SD-WAN. So this is now on the top of the technology now. Wi-Fi local area network switches SD-WAN component to connect those branches together, not just to the branches. Importantly, digital transformation encourages you offline logged applications we see in the cloud. It’s connected to those cloud environments as well. So all those lovely supervisors that we know or those “Satpayev” services is acknowledgement of that as well. And connect me to that. But the fourth element, which I think to be honest, I don’t like calling for it should be green in anything we do, which is security. So all of those elements are going to be secure. Yes, you will have a pointed firewall at a given site. That’s granted. But also the application needs to be secure. The user need to connect securely and confidently. So it’s a wrap of all of those types of technologies. But again, provides the ability to make sure they can access applications securely is prioritised. So, again, for the consultation I mentioned before, it ensures that anything which has to be prioritised will be prioritised across the network. To ensure that the service that they are the customer provides is always 100% guaranteed.

ANDREW MCLEAN [00:12:31] It’s interesting we’re in a, we’re in a very in different phase at the moment in terms of working, of course we’ve had this lockdown and we’re now going to employ social distancing. And people are talking about more sparse offices and moving offices and different things as Axians decision been to start really pushing this Network as a Service. Been a reaction to what’s happened in the current economic sociological climate or is there… What’s the reasoning behind it? Why have clients asked for this?

DANIEL THOMAS [00:13:09] Well, first of foremost, I think that we need to obviously more countries want to talk about this subject because it is a societal problem, as you mentioned before. And that’s that has to be at the forefront of everyone’s thinking. But from a business point of view, this is a service that is was born long before the pandemic arose. So this is something that was actually established a year ago or just over a year ago, actually, by our colleagues in Axians in the Netherlands. And that’s something that we’re replicating here in the U.K. But just to point to note that the actual solution is global solution. We were delivering it from the U.K. Just to make that point clear. But you’re right. It just does play into it does help businesses in what is a very, very difficult time for a number of different reasons. And there’s two things here. The first thing is that a lot of customers are going to have the same problem, but going to have probably less cash to do it. now, as a result of the pandemic. What we see providing the fact that we can provide this is an OpPex based model. Actually helps with cash flow so it means that there isn’t an amount that have to from a CapEx, really spend a lot of money on. So we do help and see that as a benefit. It was important before. It’s just a bit more important now, which has been heightened and also accelerates a lot of the thinking of the CTO as a CIO is it the swilled that half of this digital transformation plan and this report it forward and is about connected and you say the mere workforce as well. And the solution inherently does have that as a feature as well to connect remote users and providing access to the digital workspace or whatever that may be, but it can be accessed from anywhere in the globe. So and again, that is a key, key part as well to make.

ANDREW MCLEAN[00:14:52] The time know is- we’re coming up on 12:45, on the 28th of Friday. For those just joining us, I’m joined at the moment by Daniel Thomas from Axians U.K. and we are talking about Networking As A Service, a way of changing the way that you consume networking from a from an op, from a CapEx to an OPEX. And with that, with that statement in mind, Daniel. I’ll- is there any particular verticals that this is more suited for or more?

DANIEL THOMAS [00:15:28] Well, what I will say that is not any particular vertical. What it does, we actually have into two main flavours, as it were. There’s one word, it’s “campus” flavour. And what that means is you have a large “campus” which across multiple different floors, and it all requires in areas every image structure. And the business requires a level of Wi-Fi, which is obviously more and more important. In fact, it’s almost that, in fact, to now connecting into these environments, the line infrastructure to support that and also the security element and the SD-WAN as well. That’s a large campus, so that’s a one big off base that say that may be in London or wherever it may be, has multiple level floors. That’s one model that we look at. And the other model is more of a branch type model. So that’s, again, where you have an X number of sites. It’s almost a profile of the sites. And that’s what we do. And determine as part of the consultation- consultation process is determine the type of profile of site that you have, because always going to be commonality. You’re going to have an X number of number sites. And organ to have a common I.T. requirements where it’s going to be a one or two switches for redundancy, one or two firewalls for the same reason. And you’re going to put that- they’re going- you’re gonna stand across to provide consistency, a consistent level of service. Some may be more important than others, but it’s a recognition of that as part of the consultation process. So to answer your question, turn to the vertical. There isn’t any specific vertical over them. If you fit in one of those two camps, then that network services is absolutely the right thing to look at. And we can go through that through a series of discussions to really establish your network. We deliver back to you as a service.

ANDREW MCLEAN [00:17:07] I suppose one obvious thing where it will scale up and down are things like possibly things that contact centres. Like projects where mass number of people are suddenly employed to do a particular project on a short term contract during that period and then it goes it shrinks down again. That to me, that seems like a perfect fit for something where you you’re actually scaling.

DANIEL THOMAS [00:17:34] Yeah, absolutely. Yeah. Because you made a key point there that you reminded me also. Thank you very much. Is the fact that we do scale in both ways at scale. Look, obviously, as businesses grow, but just as importantly, if there is forever reason that business needs to scale down. With the actual solution we’ll scale down with it. No, I cannot answer that consumption element that I mentioned before, the fact that we can cancel since we don’t need it anymore. So we can gree with the customers to understand if we do need to scale down, you can. And by the way, when you when you actually scale down, your next monthly bill will reflect that. So you get. And this, again, if you look at the CapEx as a way of comparing it, typically you would buy assets you put them into, let’s call them stores for want of a better term. And then if you have to close a site or store down whatever reason they take that kickside, it sits on the shelf, depreciates, it’s up to pay for it. So let’s pay for licencing that companies. And they always have to have to store it somewhere, which could be new additional cost. Well, what this model allows them to do is if you have to close a site down temporarily or whatever reason that may be, we’ll actually bill you less. And that’s great for the likes of these CIOs and again, the CFOs of this will. Because it means that these predictable. It means that if they have to reduce, they have a way of knowing that they’re going to reduce costs as a result of that. And that’s you can’t underestimate the predictability of the comfort and confidence that provides a lot of executives so that they can they can approach a service, a confidence thing that they can scale if they need to. Equally, they can scale down and actually save the money as a result of that.

ANDREW MCLEAN [00:19:16] One of the things that I know by Axians, I mean probably worth mentioning, I mean, Axians are… It’s a company that’s people might not necessarily immediately recognise the name depending on the industry they’re in. But you are everywhere. I mean, I’ve been to Germany. I’ve spoken and met lovely, lovely people. I’ve been in the Netherlands, I’ve spoken people obviously from the U.K. So there is a big footprint on Axians and one of those footprints, interestingly, is some of your fantastic partnerships. So I’ve spoken to people like Juniper about the work you do with them, which they love, and Siskel, the work that you do with them, which they love. But you have how which for this particular project? Which vendor have you kind of focussed on?

DANIEL THOMAS [00:20:09] Okay, that’s a good question. And the first thing I might say about that is NaaS is not a as much as. I’ll take… I’ll take I’m a geek. First and foremost, the technology isn’t the important thing here it’s the service levels that we provide our customers because we want to preserve customer say it doesn’t matter what the technology is. However, if the questions asked, we’ll always look at best of breed technologies to ultimately satisfy the service levels to provide our customers all the great benefits that we that we discussed before. So as we start off today, the actual Network as a Service offering is using Cisco Meraki technology, and that is what we are using it for, is absolutely perfect for the technology, the scale it provides, the simplicity. And we look at other providers as well. You mentioned Juniper as another partner that we work very closely with a different type of engagement, but very successful. And so we will take partners on vendors if long as they meet the requirements. And that’s something we’ll look at. And she engaging all the other vendors because they’ve all caught on to it. You know, I’ll speak to vendors now about something else and we’ll talk a bit more about this network, because the service that you’re doing. You know, can we help? And as a result of that, we’re engaging with these vendors and talking with their actual product teams to well, to fit into the sort of things that we need. To be able to deliver as a service because they all see the benefit. There’s clear benefits, as we’ve highlighted there. So as a result, we’re talking to a number of different vendors. But the first one we’re looking through to bring this on board, and it is something that’s already deployed, I mentioned the Netherlands as being the ones that started this last year. They use a number of different vendors, including Cisco Meraki. And the reasons that we all know was with Cisco Meraki, they were one of the first from a SD-WAN point of view and SDN, and more importantly, that controller split from the hardware in the software and put in the control of the hardware in the Cloud. And now one of the first vendors that I came across to do that. And as a result, they got a very mature products, a very mature offering. And again, instils confidence when we speak to them and they’re using it actively. So we have a number of different use cases that we could talk to our customers about where it’s being used today. But we- I loved that simplicity that it provides that single pane of glass, so to use a buzz word there but single pane of glass, which gives you that visibility, allows you to scale, allows you to provide consistency, because you know that if you deploy something at one site, it can be quite easily replicated without any human error. And that’s one of the key reasons or how we can deliver this as a service confidently because we’re managing it centrally and taking all the benefits that you get from SDN. And that’s a key facet. And we talked actually just before we started about technology and how it’s changing so rapidly. And for me personally, being in the networking industry now for about 20 years and it’s only these last 5 to 10 years of being the acceleration in some of the  technology has been massive. And almost that’s why I can’t keep up. But I’m enjoying that challenge. But the SDN is a massive part of being able to provide this. And you can already see things around the corner. So while I’m talking about NaaS today and what it can do using some of the SDN capability, we’re talking to vendors about what’s next. And how can we and we can do this right now, by the way. Is how can we provide better business insight? How can we use the data that networks collect and collect data every minute of every day. I mean, what that place can you really go to in a business and a network that really tells you what’s happening on your business? The visibility that it provides and gives too different levels of the business today to make more informed collective decisions. Now it’s another key reason why we looked at Cisco Meraki is being one of those one because of the insight that it provides, because of the visibility that it provides to which we will in turn give our customers.

DANIEL THOMAS [00:24:02] It helps them our consultation, but also helps them day to day as well. So it’s another key element of the solution is that visibility. But what’s next? We got Artificial Intelligence? You’ve got Machine Learning. Some of it is baked into the solutions today, I might add. You know, we need to take that into consideration as well. So always thinking about tomorrow, but we’re focussed on today.

ANDREW MCLEAN [00:24:23] Now is my time for my hard hardball question. So I’m ready… I’m going to ask you, it’s very important, it’s very important. So if I need a laptop tomorrow, I might go to a shop and I might get this laptop. Just something to work on now. If that doesn’t work for me, I’ll go. I’ll just put it in a cupboard somewhere. It doesn’t really it doesn’t really matter. My network, however, is important to me. If I. So we run studios. So we need to move to the networks. Right. I might be a recruitment agent. I need to make sure my my “VoIP” phones work. So making a decision on networking is… I don’t think people necessarily appreciate it to begin with when the start ups, the godwit just cancelled. But networking becomes more and more important. If I had to… If I have to put a network in and I am going down this nice route, why would I… What would be the trust element of selecting Axians or for just doing something myself or hiring in my own engineers or whatever it maybe?

DANIEL THOMAS [00:25:33] I know. So it’s a very good question because trust is a key part. Particularly common, as I mentioned, for a trusted advisor. And to be honest, I think the one point wants to pick up first before answering that is that you mentioned there about the ability to… I can’t figure what it was now, I’ll come back to that later. So, to your question of the trust, it starts off with a conversation, ultimately. it’s also between two people, between me and you. I was talking to you now. We would build… you can’t demand trust, you earn it through competition that we have. And we can do all the things that a lot of businesses will ask with due diligence. Have we done it before? How long you been established? All those as far as I’m concerned are prerequisites. They are things that we have in abundance. But that’s not where it starts. Something you won’t be around the table unless you have that. But the actual trust starts when you have that conversation and they understand, they can see that they you understand their business. You’re not doing something tactically. You do some strategically, which is key because at the moment, a lot of businesses is in a position whereby they because of the pandemic, because of the the safety at work, which is absolutely paramount, because users, the humans in this are absolutely key. So safety workers is massive. And that’s a lot of conversation we’re having now is around that very subject. Safety at work. So we need to make sure that our users, aren’t use on our customers or potential customers aren’t doing something tactically. By that, I mean a complete reaction to what’s happening. There’s a time to be reactive and the time to be proactive. So what we do is talk to customers and make sure that they because we understand exactly the sorts of things that they’re going through, identify the issues that they’ve got now, but also talk about in the same conversation what they’re trying to do strategically. I want to know things like what happens if a site goes down? What happens if the latency on a particular application is bad? How does that impact you as a business? How does that affect your revenue? How does it affect your market share? Your brand awareness? By asking these types of questions, you’re getting a more in-depth view. Exactly what makes them thick. And by doing that, I’m hoping that seems to me how can we get an element of trust? But that’s just a start. Trust starts there. It builds up by delivering, being consistent, doing the things that you say you going to do and then keep growing. And so that’s an important point, actually, is a subject that we’re going to be discussing and in MasterClass. So we’ve done a series of MasterClasses. Now, the first MasterClass, we’ve talked about technology and humans and interaction between them and what emotion was it play a part. Which absolutely does, by the way, was there was the answer to that question. The next step and we’re gonna be talking about. Why should we own…  why is owning something doesn’t important anymore? We’ve already seen applications move from a data sent to the Cloud. We don’t own it another piece of 10 and the data centre that we heat it cool. It’s now in a data centre. We trust the fact that it’s in an environment that we can access anytime time. And at the NaaS kind of is another acknowledgement of that. You got sprawl of different applications that could be anywhere. It’s not in any fixed location. So it’s an it’s a new way of thinking. It’s not a static, emulous connection that’s just on a private emulous network. and that’s what all my applications to be hosted. No, it could be anywhere. And you need a network that’s going to help to adapt and be agile enough to cope with that. So we’re trusting things to be in the Cloud. This is an over extension that put the absolute start to the conversation. Absolutely starts with me talking to you. Call what we can do, what we can do for you. I’m being sincere about it. And that’s where I think the trust builds and continues. And by the way, you could build a trust, but you can easily. You can lose quite easily as well. So that continual engagement will help provide and build on that.

ANDREW MCLEAN [00:29:18] Fantastic. Great. Great answer. Great answer. I love it. I love it. Okay, so Daniel, you’ll be relieved to know that you’re grilling in your interview is now over.

DANIEL THOMAS [00:29:26] But we’re just getting started.

ANDREW MCLEAN [00:29:27] We were just getting started. Unfortunately, we have run out of time. However, I’ve got to ask you a couple of other questions. Number one, what’s on your wall?

DANIEL THOMAS [00:29:36] Cool. I’m in the kitchen, uhhm so…

ANDREW MCLEAN [00:29:41] Yeah but we see the blackboard. We see signs.

DANIEL THOMAS [00:29:44] Yeah. That’s keeping the kids in turn, making sure that they’re doing their chores. And we were monitoring them, and watching and, you know, just giving us a bit of a whole way of controlling what we do. We by we. Because I can’t hold or in my head. So we need to put it on a wall somewhere.

ANDREW MCLEAN [00:29:57]  But I think it write order. Oh no, it says this week. I thought it says this week, I thought it says “the wall”.

DANIEL THOMAS [00:30:01] No,” this week” what we’re doing this week, we make sure we’re doing it on the right time.

ANDREW MCLEAN [00:30:06] And a reminder for your yourself as well.

DANIEL THOMAS [00:30:07] Yeah, actually for me. I mean. Yeah. Yeah, to keep- I have to, I need that, I need that- studied note possible where I put on the wall. So it’s on a walk past it. I’ll make sure I know where I was supposed to be, like today.

ANDREW MCLEAN [00:30:19] Exactly. And finally, my mini psychometric test. Let’s put your personality under the microscope. Just answer the following questions. The first answer that comes in your head and you can’t just fight as you wish. Sci-Fi or a period piece?

DANIEL THOMAS [00:30:37] Sci-Fi, every day of the week.

ANDREW MCLEAN [00:30:39] I love that. I love that. Paris or Los Angeles.

DANIEL THOMAS [00:30:44] Paris couldn’t be to L.A, so I have to say Paris.

ANDREW MCLEAN [00:30:47] I think it’s more of a hypothetical thought about.

DANIEL THOMAS [00:30:51] Yeah, I still say Paris because as much as L.A…

ANDREW MCLEAN [00:30:53] Even you

DANIEL THOMAS [00:30:59] I like the saltiness on Paris, the history, the tradition. That’s what I like. So I’ll still say I can watch Sci-Fi in Paris. I could do that. Does that help?

ANDREW MCLEAN [00:31:08] No. Brown sauce or tomato ketchup?

ANDREW MCLEAN [00:31:14] Tomato Ketchup. That red light brown sauce, not a fan.

ANDREW MCLEAN [00:31:16] I love it. And my final question. Christmas Eve or Christmas Day?

DANIEL THOMAS [00:31:21] Ohh, good question. Christmas Day.

ANDREW MCLEAN [00:31:26] Really?

DANIEL THOMAS [00:31:27] Christmas Day. I do like Christmas Day because it’s particularly if you’ve got children and is about children. So if you’d asked me this over 10 years ago, I might give a different answer. But right now it probably is seen that their faces light up and they will wake up at 4:00 in the morning, granted. But yeah, it is good to see it. Christmas Day is going to get all the family around and all the well, the things that we love here in the U.K.

ANDREW MCLEAN [00:31:54] Fantastic. I right. Well, Daniel Thomas, you’ve been absolutely star. Thank you so much. We’ll speak again. We look forward to seeing your new MasterClasses online. Brilliant.

DANIEL THOMAS [00:32:04] Thank you.

ANDREW MCLEAN [00:32:05] That was Daniel Thomas from Axians U.K. telling us about working as a service. Very interesting concept. That’s been going on for longer than I realised this idea that we take networks and we move it to OPEX. What was the CapEx similar to the way that people have treated Cloud for over a decade? So a very interesting, very interesting discussion at the time is now two minutes past one. You have been watching The Andy Show. Don’t forget to cheque us out on and all of our various social media channels. But until Monday, it is now the weekend. Go enjoy yourself. Until then, I’ll see you soon.