Celerity Security Panel – S2Ep4

Celerity Security Panel – S2Ep4

DAVID TAYLOR [00:00:19] Hello and welcome to another fantastic episode of Security Panel brought to you by Celerity. My name is David Taylor and I’m gonna be your host today. Today, we are going to be talking about relevant, very relevant topic. It is going to be crisis management. Today, we are very lucky to have Former Commissioner of the London Metropolitan Police, Sir Paul Stephenson, and Celerity Chief Operating officer Craig Aston. Welcome, guys.

GUESTS [00:00:46] Hi David, Hi Craig.

DAVID TAYLOR [00:00:48] Great. So, yeah, like I said, we’re gonna be talking about crisis management before we kick things off and let’s just find out a little bit more about it. So, Paul if you’d like to just give us a bit of an introduction to yourself and what you’ve done.

SIR PAUL STEPHENSON [00:01:00] Yeah. Thanks for that, David. I was a cop, putting it simply, I joined the police in 1975. Joined the Lancashire constabulary. We were lucky enough to get on the accelerated promotion scheme ended up as the youngest superintendent in the country. After that, went to Merseyside probably my craft there in terms of confronting serious and organised crime in a significant way. From there came back to Lancashire, spent some time in Northern Ireland during the troubles confronting terrorism in the southern region. I had a short commad there, and back became Deputy Chief Constable, Lancashire, then Chief Constable. Then, from my sins, I became the Deputy Commissioner of the Met, the commissioner of the Met about 3 years after that, 4 years after that, which I was fortunate to be the most senior cop in the country. And I guess in terms of what we’re dealing with today, my business was dealing with crises because there was never a day I met when you weren’t in crisis.

DAVID TAYLOR [00:02:00] Thanks for that, Craig. For anyone who hasn’t met you yet on these videos, can you just give us a bit of introduction to yourself?

CRAIG ASTON [00:02:06] Yes, certainly David. Yeah, I’m Craig Aston, I’m Chief Operating Officer of Celerity. For those who don’t know, Celerity is a 50 person I.T. business based in the North West of England. My role within the company is running the business encompassing sales, finance, operations, H.R. plus also taking leadership roles in organisations such as this and looking at looking at trends in the I.T. market and give my views on that.

DAVID TAYLOR [00:02:37] Perfect, thanks for that. So Paul, just as we get started, it’s probably a good idea to define what a crisis is? And how do you know when crisis management is required?

SIR PAUL STEPHENSON [00:02:49] Well, that might sound like a very simple question, but it’s far from simple in trying to answer it. I guess the flippant answer would be, you know, you’re in a crisis when you can smell something gathering around you and gradually getting deeper and deeper, frankly. Classically, there’s lots of definitions. I mean, the crisis is a an event or a series of events that are extraordinary that some say unpredictable. Although I would challenge, very often many of the events that end up in crisis are predictable, but they are dangerous. The dangers to the individual, the dangers to the company, they’re dangers to the reputation, dangerous to shareholders, and crisis management. Again, there are many different models, but crisis management is a simply process to take you from the crisis, through the crisis, into recovery and learning the lessons from where you’ve been, which can be a speedy process. But very often it can be a lengthy process, a damaging one, a dangerous one. But most of all, it must be a learning one.

DAVID TAYLOR [00:03:53] Brilliant. So how would you know when crisis management is required? I know you just touched on what crisis management is.

SIR PAUL STEPHENSON [00:04:00] Well, funnily enough people talk about crisis management, and I think a lot of people immediately go to the processes and the systems which are, by the way, hugely important. But from my perspective, the most important thing is about people. People are experienced people, who can self reflect actually in lifetime and people who can sense that this is extraordinary because one of the greatest dangers one of the biggest mistakes we all make and we’ve all been there by the way, if you work in crisis management, is failing to see the crisis quickly enough. Failing to see it coming, failing to be alert to that crisis. Failing to understand that when the crisis does overwhelm you, actually trying to avoid it and complacent it is your worst enemy. Better get it wrong by deciding to get your crisis management tools and equipments and people ready, ready to come and do it early and be wasted, then do it too late because playing catchup in a crisis is never a pleasant thing to do.

CRAIG ASTON [00:04:58] I think it’s a it’s a fascinating time for us to be talking about this, given what’s going on in the wider world with the covid-19 pandemic. I think we’ve all seen different countries react in different ways. And I as you said, as you say, Paul, some of them accepting it’s a crisis, some some denial, all the different things that we’ll talk about through this session. But to do this now with what’s going on in the world. I think it’s a it’s a great time to be talking about this.

SIR PAUL STEPHENSON [00:05:27] Craig, I think you’re absolutely right. I mean, what what’s going to happen as when we get through this. And of course, we will get through it. What we will look like, what the world will look like, what the high street will look like, what business will look like. That’s a different matter. But we will get through it one way or another. And after that, there will be the… there will be these sort of enquiries. Those enquiries are going to simply ask, what did they know? When did they know it? What did they do about it? And what are they going to do to prevent it happening again? And those questions and I’ve been through a number of enquiries following crises and I’ve been through a number of selective affairs committees and major enquiries, and they are never easy questions to answer. I can assure you it won’t be in the in the covid-19 enquiry.

DAVID TAYLOR [00:06:17] Great. Thanks for that. So it’s obviously clear that you’ve had a lot of experience with crisis management yourself Paul. Can you explain a bit about the methodology that you’ve used?

SIR PAUL STEPHENSON [00:06:28] Yeah, I guess, again, if you go to the management books. I won’t argue with many of the theories. There’s lots of theory about crisis management. There are lots of different models. The vast majority are adequate. You’ve just got to satisfy yourself what model do you want that gives you you the best chance? And I’ll keep coming back to this. I give you the best chance to get lucky because to survive a crisis, it’s all about being, and this is my model. It is about being alert. It’s about being prepared. It is about containing the crisis and then it’s learning from that crisis. And in doing that, preparation is everything. It really is give yourself the opportunity to be lucky. It’s a bit like when people say Usain Bolt or I think they want said it to famous golfer. I think it was Arnold Palmer. “Gosh, Arnold, how come? How come you’re so good?” And he said, “I guess it’s just a funny old thing, the more I practised, the better I seem to get”. It is the same with crisis. And I’m quite sure it’s the same with cyber. You can’t suddenly expect to deal with extraordinary events and invent how are you going to deal with it on the spot, you’ve got to make friends in peace time because it’s very difficult making friends and finding people to help them in wartime and in crisis.

CRAIG ASTON [00:07:47] I think it’s absolutely right. I think the quote you were looking for Paul, was actually from Gary Player. And I think he said I think he said “the more I practise, the luckier I get” which actually feeds back into, as you say, you’re trying to give yourself the opportunity to be lucky. I think also when you were talking about the different principles of how to manage a crisis, being alert, preparing and potentially looking at those things, you wanted to talk through those 5 principles, Paul? And then what I could do is just talk about how those are relevant to the cyber sphere.

SIR PAUL STEPHENSON [00:08:26] Yeah. If I look at the alert thing, this is about avoiding complacency. This is about thinking, well, everything seems to be going well. But then if all your direct reports are telling you that everything is fine and there is nothing wrong and nothing on the horizon, then I would tend to suggest from my experience that somebody is not being straight with them. Somebody is not telling you the truth. And again, I’ll come back to this time and time again. Both pre-crisis on during crisis. Who are those people around you? What are those behaviours of people who are going to tell you things that you don’t necessarily want to hear? Because that’s the most important thing in preparing for a crisis and being alert to it.

CRAIG ASTON [00:09:07] Yeah, I completely see that and we’ve seen this in the cyber world a lot over the last 2 years or so. In the fact that there’s an awful lot of organisations that have either been in denial, they’ve actually believed that they’re not at risk and they’re too small. They’re in the wrong industry. It won’t happen to us. We hear that all the time, I also think there’s a number of organisations who are saying we’re fine with this because we’re relying on somebody else, be is a Cloud provider, be it somebody who provides their systems for them, whereas actually if they took a little deeper, they would then understand that actually the responsibility stays, will stays with them. And I think also the good news point, the NCSC the National Cyber security Centre, started talking 3 or 4 years ago about the fact that board members needed to get themselves educated on this and actually really understand the cyber threat. And an actually aside, the crisis and there are some organisations have done that and there are some organisations that have stayed in denial of that have really put their heads in the sand, I would say. And it comes back to this being alert, you’ve got to see the cyber risk as being a risk like any of the rest of your business. So therefore, there is a potential you can have a crisis in this area.

SIR PAUL STEPHENSON [00:10:28] You know Craig, your use of the word denial, puts me in mind. Again, if you go to the management textbooks. I think there’s quite a famous 5 point plan of how you probably shouldn’t deal with crisis and it starts with denial. That is the senior people in the organisation pretending this is not serious. And, you know, just understanding human nature is important. Senior managers, they all have a vast interest in things not going wrong in their part of the business on their watch. So denial is the first part. Then they go to containment, and containment is shouldering the blame. “Put passing the book”, let’s keep it quiet. My simple message to people are in crisis and are trying to keep it quiet if more than we know about it. It’s no longer a secret. My experiences if. Bad news there. Rest assured, it’s going to get out. So get yourself out of denial and be prepared to get yourself out of that containment. That says, let’s find someone else to blame. The next step, the third stage of that unfortunate model is shame, shame mongering or shame “manager”. The self-defence, “not my fault, let’s assign blame somewhere else”. One of the classics there, I think was Storm Katrina. When you saw the local authorities and the federal authorities blaming each other, lost the place that the whole of New Orleans was suffering dreadfully. And in the end, a lot of people started blaming the criminal poor. That was a classic case of shame, shame mongering, moving the “BoCom”. Then you get to the blood on the floor. Somebody’s got to take the blame. And then when you’ve gone through all of those kind of wasting time processes, then you’ve got to fix the problem. You had to deal with the crisis. So I agree with you Craig, the issue of denial and then moving the blame somewhere else. It just waste so much time when you really, really need to roll your sleeves up and get down to managing this thing that’s about to overwhelming.

CRAIG ASTON [00:12:29] The denial stage, I think is interesting as well because I think the opposite for me of denial and leaders who aren’t in denial is the ones who do actually decide to prepare. So they actually accept there is an issue except there is a problem or or try to try to forsee a problem, I suppose, further into the future. So they actually do put plans in place to actually dial with the. Sorry to deal with these sorts of incidents. So for recovery plans, as we would describe them set where you actually do look at. Actually one of these incidents. How would you say organisations should should prepare? Or what should they be looking up to actually prepare for a crisis?

SIR PAUL STEPHENSON [00:13:10] Well, of course, you’ve got to be conscious, as you say, sort of, that you’re cyber got the plans. You’ve got to have documented strategies. Huge importance. Many of those are about learning from your own past and other people’s past, other people’s crises, because a huge learning in these events, if we can get back to the blame game. Get away from the blame game and get into the learning again. So you’ve got any strategies. You’ve got other strategies to deal with the past. But then you’ve got to be alert to what the future is bringing it, because there’s just just no point in dealing with yesterday’s war because there’s a new war coming over the horizon. Not certainly seems to be the case to me in cyber. But I’d go beyond that. Plans and strategies are hugely important. But people are equally, if not not more important. What are the norms of behaviour in your business? Have you got people who are who can reflect in the moment, who can respond to the crisis and not respond, weeks, months afterwards. That’s hindsight. And that’s deeply distressing to somebody who’s in a crisis. “Managers arise are so” self reflected. You were quite clear on understanding where are you trying to go with this, what is the end game? but are willing to listen. And in listening actually in advance, recruiting those people be other organisations with system or other people outside your normal report process, your managering reports who will tell you the truth, and they are not self invested in the things that have gone wrong. So that preparation, making sure you’re going to hear those uncomfortable messages not just before the crisis, but during the crisis, and making sure you make those friends in advance, making sure you have those partners in advance is absolutely critical, because I think I’ve already said it. Making friends in a crisis is just a fool’s errand. You really do need to make your friends. Get your partners in advance and agree. What are the strategies? What are the norms of behaviour? Who are the people that can take you through this? Who are the people who have the skills, the resilience that reflected behaviour and where you’re going to get those offsite messages from that say you’re not getting this quite right. You need to do something different and then bolt onto the back of that will not bolt on running through it. How are you going to get first class communications to stakeholders, to your customers, to the wider world, to the politicians, to the media? Because communications is everything in a crisis.

CRAIG ASTON [00:15:42] It’s interesting because we have we’re talking through this. I think the thing I picked up there is resilient leaders. You need resilient leaders who… Resilient leaders who are prepared to both hear the hard messages, to be able to think on the fly and actually be have to listen to information and make decisions while it’s going forward. But actually, then it moves very quickly on to, as you said, that communication and understanding your external stakeholders, whether they are suppliers, customers, whomever that is, to be able to support you through these things. Also comes back to the preparation. So hopefully I’ve talked to those stakeholders before you get into the crisis. You know how people are going to react.

SIR PAUL STEPHENSON [00:16:26] I couldn’t agree more. It is about practising these things in advance. It’s about exhaustively practising. And so, you know, they are there when you absolutely need them. But people are key to those people. As you said, you can reflect in the moment. Who can reflect in the heat of the moment, can stay calm, but actually can practise the normal problem-solving that we all go through. We can involve, different models of problem-solving. Mine would be “scan” analysis, response and assessment, but can do that in quick time and can do it whilst listening to multiple messages and pick out from that cause, from that noise, because crises are hugely noisy. How would you pick out those key bits of information, those key things that tell you, you’re not getting it right? Or you could do more something else, or you’re not communicating the right people, or you need to do more of that communication and less of that.

DAVID TAYLOR [00:17:21] So, yeah, we’ve always gone into the methodology. We’ve talked about some principles of crisis management. And Paul, in your opinion, what are some of the biggest challenges to effective crisis management? if you haven’t touched on it already?

SIR PAUL STEPHENSON [00:17:33] Well, I think we have to “touched” on the them. To acknowledge that you’ve got something that’s quite extraordinary, actually getting your plans and getting your people out and getting ready. That’s the first thing that goes wrong. Secondly, failing to identify the people in advance. They’re going to assist you through this crisis, of course, both within your organisation and external to it, the partners that are going to assist you. Because I’ve said time and time again, when I talk to people about crisis management, trying to make friends in a crisis, it’s just not the right thing to do. Make your friends beforehand, make contacts beforehand. Allowed your managers to make mistakes. Allow people to make mistakes. Learn from them quickly. Be reflective. Move on and change your tactics to get to the end you are looking for. Another mistake. And I often compare crisis to a kind of Australian bushfire. Thankfully, I’ve never been in one that looked dreadful fires and deadly. But I guess in Australian bushfire, the classic response to that is to build firebreaks. I’ve seen people building fire breaks in crisis management, whether where they make the mistake of building the firebreak too narrow because they don’t want to do too much damage to the organisation. The reality is, if you’re going to build a firebreak, it’s going to be broad enough to stop the fire leaping over that break. And it’s the same with the firebreaks that you’re building in your organisation in crisis. You’ve got to recognise, you are likely going to get damaged. Your job is how do you minimise the damage? How do you mitigate and in doing that. Yes. People are going to be hurt and people are going to be damaged. How do you look after them? How do you ensure you’re not getting the blame game? And how do you ensure you contend this thing? You get to recover it. And you get to learn points. There are so many things that can go wrong, but largely sort of failing to prepare, not having the right strategies and then not having the right people who have the right behaviours are not having the right external partners and advisers to assist me through this. I guess within all of that, you would probably find more than sufficient things to go wrong.

CRAIG ASTON [00:19:44] I think the other side of it in the cyber space, particularly around cyber attacks on businesses, is trying to work out what a good outcome looks like. And the fact that in a lot of cases when there is a large cyber attack, a good outcome may not be running the business exactly the same as you would normally run it day to day for a significant period of time. But the key point there is you are still running the business and the business is still continuing to operate. So therefore, it’s about being flexible enough in your thinking to think around. Yeah. What are the goals when you’re looking to recover? What  would be a good outcome in recovery? How are you going to do that? All the backups there. Do you have a place to go back to? As Paul says, do you have the people to actually be able to make sure that the business continues to run? But also, I dunno what you think Paul, but somehow in a crisis, not trying to make sure everything goes back exactly the same as it was originally, immediately you’ve got to survive. That’s the key thing. Surely.

SIR PAUL STEPHENSON [00:20:48] Again, sort of it. We haven’t rehearsed this, but I couldn’t agree more. I mean, the reality is life moves on. And if you are going to do one in terms of my strategy, you’re going to do one of the key things that crisis demands of you, and that is learn from it. If all you’re trying to do is replicate what you had before, all you’re going to do is replicate the problems you had before in learning from it. We develop our organisations in developing organisations that may be our organisation looks marginally or significantly different. I guess if you go back to our current some kind of health crisis, what is life going to look like after this? Certainly a lot of us are going to reflect on how life was and how life might change. And certainly for a lot of businesses, there’s a lot of damage out there and it’s horrendous. But there will be opportunities and there will be learning. So I couldn’t agree more. Don’t try and replicate exactly what you had before, because that went wrong, you got into a crisis. Try and make sure you learn from it. And that means looking different and sometimes behaving differently.

CRAIG ASTON [00:21:56] And what do you think? Paul, what do you think is important in the in the recovery phase? I think one thing we do see in the cyber spaces, organisations will prepare themselves. They’ll have the systems ready to actually assess an attacker and work out what the attacks done and all that. But actually, I think in a lot of cases, actually looking at the stage where it attacks been seen and various things have happened. The thoughts about how do we recover from it going forward and what does it look like? What do you think is important in the recovery stage?

SIR PAUL STEPHENSON [00:22:27] Well, in the recovery stage, you’ve got you have to look at how good were you in your being alert and how good you are in your preparedness. And I guess I can’t think of a crisis. And as you said, I’ve been in quite a few and probably cause “wanted to help with something else” about it, because the reality is a significant number of crises are about poor leadership decisions. And if you’ve been in management and leadership long enough, we all know that we’re on some days. We don’t do as well as it does. So I do think it’s about learning from it. I do think it’s about when you get to the recovery phase. Revisit your strategies, revisit your preparedness, book critically. Revisit your people. Revisit the behaviours and the norms. If we can, try not to get into the blame game of ensuring that the person who was the head of whatever part of your organisation that led to this crisis, that necessarily they have to lead the organisation or that we get to the somebody has to go ahead us to be lopped off because I go back to just general management. When I saw that interview and choose my key reports leaders, I didn’t want somebody who wasn’t scarred by battle. I didn’t want somebody who’d never been associated with mistake because I would just point to that to someone who’s never done anything or did manage to show the blame to someone else. I don’t want reckless people. I want people to learn from the mistakes and learn from the crisis. So try and keep the people in the organisation who are best positioned to take the organisation forward to say, this is how we. This is how I got this wrong. That’s why you need reflective people who are who have the intelligence and the self-awareness to be better next time.

CRAIG ASTON [00:24:21] I think they. Yeah. I completely agree with that. I think the communications becomes important, doesn’t it, as well. Obviously there’s a lot of cases where at the end it’s all about the comms and culpability and also potentially getting to an apology. But I know I’ve seen so many written before where it says don’t be forced into apology. Get ahead of the communications challenge and make sure you’re controlling those communications. What what’s your view on that?

SIR PAUL STEPHENSON [00:24:50] What sort of what you’re talking about? When I used to do lectures on this sort of stuff. I always started with who amongst us in a leadership sense was chosen for our humility. I’m not many of us were chosen for being humble people. But humility is incredibly important. It’s a central aspect to good leaders. And good leaders need to recognise that when they’ve got something wrong, they reality. The likelihood is that’s going to get the fact that you’ve made a mistake. If you’ve made a mistake and it’s likely it going to get out, which is the case certainly where I come from, then get up there and say, you’ve made a mistake. Get out there quickly to key stakeholders. Get the apology over and done with. Because if you can get ahead of being forced into an apology, there is some credit in that because you’ve shown humility and you’ve shown the self-awareness to get ahead of it and put it right. If you are forced into an apology. That is all loss. There is no gain. There is no profit in the forced apology. It’s not. It’s not just about being humble then. That is about being humiliated. And we don’t want our organisation to be humiliated. So it’s not a question of being going out and telling anybody that we’re no good jobs. But it is a question of being self-aware as leaders and ensuring that we get ahead of the problems, deal with those problems head on and then get on important business. And the important businesses, how are we going to deal with this crisis? How are going against recovery? Why is your money set with us? Why do you need to continue to be our customers?

CRAIG ASTON [00:26:23] Yeah. The biggest thing in the cyber space around that, which makes it really, really difficult, is how quickly everything changes. And you are changing a lot. You’re talking about a rapidly evolving threat landscape. It’s one of the reasons that we deal with the “t-one vendors” we deal with that actually. They do keep up to speed and up to date with the various different threats there are. But actually having that humility and in some ways, in some ways being able to say, look, we are we are putting our preparations in place, but we know full well that there is a potential that we will be hit by a fine attack at some point. We’ve had the “#insularity”. It’s why not if for a long time. Now, because this is such a quickly moving subject that you cannot protect yourself from everything, which then comes back to making sure you’re prepared and ready to deal with it.

SIR PAUL STEPHENSON [00:27:15] Preparedness in terms of strategies and plans and people is the key. But also the key is that we’ve touched on is communication and showing you understand how you’re going to communicate, with who you need to have on board. I guess there’s lots and lots of examples of where, well, that’s gone terribly wrong in crises. I mean, I can give an example from my own experience, but far too I can give. I think the example that I think we all know about in crisis management is the Deepwater Horizon British Petroleum thing, where when it went wrong in the in the Gulf of Mexico, that was a company all going well, all going well in terms of extracting the black stuff in the Gulf of Mexico. And then suddenly there is a crisis. Somebody dies and then the organisation dealt with its appalling way. And in the aftermath of what they found, was there that preparedness in terms of how they communicate, who they communicate with, what they say was way off the mark. And as a result of that, it cost them a fortune. It cost them a lot of money. It cost them that sort of, if you will, the anger of the American president. And I guess once you got the American presidents, the US president, criticising you, if that’s about as bad as it can get. I look at my own sort of history. I was Deputy Commissioner in the Met when the Metropolitan Police tragically shot the wrong guy and killed the wrong guy. We’d had the 77 bombings management. Many people remember that when 52 people were murdered on the underground and on a bus in Tavistock Square by terrorists. We lost 52 people in that attack. And then two weeks later, there was a further attempt to blow up the underground. The following day, we thought we were on the trail of one of the terrorists. And then tragically, we implemented what was called “Operation Kretus”. We shot him on the tube in the underground. It turned out we had the wrong guy. We killed an innocent man. And yet our communications in the after that event caused us. I mean, can it be even worse than killing the wrong guy? It’s as bad as it gets. But then to that compound, that’s where the appallingly bad communications. It is just shocking. And what we did, we were in such a defensive mindset. We wanted to believe that we had got the right person. We wanted to believe that because we wanted to convince ourselves and everyone else that we got, we’ve taken out one of the terrorists to keep people safe. And then secondly, we found it very difficult to believe that we got this so badly wrong, in killing the wrong person. As a result of this. We defended that position for far too long and removed any credibility or any sense of humility that the organisation had left. As a result of that, we were rightly taken apart. That was I was as the Deputy Commissioner that time. But some that is branded into my memory of how not to do it.

CRAIG ASTON [00:30:26] I say, it’ fascinating that you talked about that Paul. That’s a fantastic real example of as you say, the humility, the humility piece of leaders actually going have I got this right in the first place and what can I learn? And I’m trying to, presumably trying to understand how to react on the fly as events, as events are happening as well. It’s that flexibility is really difficult.

SIR PAUL STEPHENSON [00:30:53] Craig, I agree. It’s about being very clear in what the end game you’re trying to achieve, but then having the self-awareness on the flexibility to amend your course, of course, as you go through. And also to avoid one the critical issues, and that is avoid your organisation and individuals of becoming defensive. I’ve seen so many crises and I’ve been part of a number of them. Why we have become overly defensive, refused to re-examine what we thought were given troops and given norms. Results of this. We got it terribly wrong. In the case of Jean Charles de Menezes, when we we shot we shot and killed the wrong guy. It just doesn’t get worse than that. And that sort of experience stays with you forever, as it was, because it quite rightly should. What do we get wrong? We got the comms wrong and we became defensive. We couldn’t, we just refused for a period of hours, stretching almost to a day that we’d got the wrong guy. Certain people in our organisation were unwilling to accept that, that is a defensive mindset. And every organisation is going to avoid a defensive mindset because all you’re doing is setting yourself up for the eventual truth to come out.

CRAIG ASTON [00:32:01] I think that’s a, I think that’s a brilliant final piece of advice to actually give. I think avoiding a defensive mindset is it’s such a human reaction for us to believe that we’re right and to be open enough to go actually have we got this right? Let’s really look at this. I think it’s a fantastic piece of advice.

SIR PAUL STEPHENSON [00:32:21] Yeah. The only thing I’m finishing on that, Craig, is all I’ve told you about how I got everything wrong. I’d just like to say for the audience that “I managed to get the whole thing runs” as well.

CRAIG ASTON [00:32:33] Absolutely.

DAVID TAYLOR [00:32:35] Well, that’s it. Thanks for that guys.I think that’s all we’ve got time for today. And I just want to thank you both for coming on the show. I think it’s been a really informative and really, really interesting episode. See ya. Thanks for coming, guys. T.

CRAIG ASTON [00:32:47] Thank you very much, David. Thanks, Paul.

SIR PAUL STEPHENSON [00:32:49] Thanks, Craig

DAVID TAYLOR [00:32:51] Thank you for joining us for a great episode of security panel brought to you by Celerity and catch us next time for the next episode.