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Giant Healthy Innovators – S2 Ep9

Giant Healthy Innovators – S2 Ep9

BARRY SHRIER [00:00:35] Hello and welcome to this week’s episode of GIANT’s healthy Innovators Live TV. My name is Barry Shrier and I’m your host. And to begin with, I’d like to thank our many tens of thousands of viewers. We appreciate you watching these episodes and we hope you find them interesting and educational and informative and enjoyable. I’d also like to thank our sponsors. Thank you very much to Grovelands, a leading European management consultancy. And thanks to Tech Data, who are Europe’s leading distributor of IBM Watson Healthcare Technology. Thanks to our sponsors. Lastly, our premium sponsor, the GIANT Health Event. Every year in London, the GIANT Health Event runs what is labelled as Europe’s largest and most valuable international festival of health tech innovation. This year, the GIANT Health Event is on the 15th and 16th of October, taking place in central London and if you want to learn more, please go to the website https// thank you very much to all of our sponsors. Once again, my name is Barry Shrier and we’re gonna follow the format that we follow every week. So once again, we brought together a group of incredibly talented and motivated people who are working very hard to improve the health and the well-being of people around the world by innovating in healthcare and technology. So thank you very much, guys. Really glad to have you on board. What we’ll do is we’ll go around the table and ask everybody to introduce ourselves and then we’re going to talk about a particular issue this week, which is blockchain in health care. So very excited to have you guys along, extremely interested to learn more about blockchain and how I can actually tap into your personal Bitcoin wallets and extract those. So thanks very much. Simon, nice to see you. How are things going?


SIMON HOOPER [00:02:15] Very good. Very interesting times.


BARRY SHRIER [00:02:17] Excellent. So if you don’t mind, if you can introduce yourself briefly and let us know what you’re doing these days.


SIMON HOOPER [00:02:21] Yes, I have my background as a geologist. I am a technologist. But I got into this world that I am now a fascinating world, courtesy of watching my mother take that care journey. She went from diagnosis, misdiagnosis to end of life. And during that journey, many mistakes were made, classic ones. Such misdiagnosis lost data and so forth. And along that journey, I noticed that person-centred care was the phrase that was always being used right. And yet it wasn’t being delivered.


BARRY SHRIER [00:02:46] Interesting.


SIMON HOOPER [00:02:47] The doctor, the nurses, the carers were not really personally engaged and we wanted that engagement. So I did what everyone does, which is give up your job and start a start-up. Excellent crazy, and the start up was to do just that, to make it possible for carers to better know the person.


BARRY SHRIER [00:03:01] Oh, superb.


SIMON HOOPER [00:03:01] And it’s going very well in hospitals, day-care centres.


BARRY SHRIER [00:03:04] What’s the name of the business?


SIMON HOOPER [00:03:05] but you get to a point where you’ve got to engage consumers themselves to actually capitalise on what is happening with that relationship that I’ve just talked about.


BARRY SHRIER [00:03:16] Yes.


SIMON HOOPER [00:03:16] And that’s where blockchain gets involved.


BARRY SHRIER [00:03:18] Oh, perfect. Good stuff. Looking forward. Hearing more about it. Yeah. Excellent. Please.


ROB LEARNEY [00:03:22] So I’m Rob, I’m a lead technologist in blockchain distributed ledgers at the Digital Catapult, which is a UK multi-technology company vendor, neutral part government funded. We’re there to trying to grow the economy by connecting the right players from government, academia and large and small industry, as well as helping people tap into grant funding and other sources of funding to develop prototypes and to demonstrate products.


BARRY SHRIER [00:03:50] Excellent. That’s Digital Catapults.


ROB LEARNEY [00:03:51] That’s Digital Catapult. Yeah.


BARRY SHRIER [00:03:53] The website is…


ROB LEARNEY [00:03:53] and I also happened to have been a medical doctor, working in the NHS for 6 years before I left and got full time into blockchain. But as a result of my time as a medical doctor, I was very deeply interested in transplant and renal care. So I actually have a start-up on the side, where we are doing continuous monitoring of kidneys prior to transplantation to improve outcomes for anybody. That’s a couple of hats that I wear.


BARRY SHRIER [00:04:22] Yeah.


ROB LEARNEY [00:04:22] I think that’s a…


BARRY SHRIER [00:04:23] No, no, no, superb and looking forward to hearing more about it. Monitoring of kidneys before they’re transplanted.


ROB LEARNEY [00:04:28] Yes, and then the patients after they’ve received.


BARRY SHRIER [00:04:30] Yes. Oh, that’s extremely interesting. No, I’d love to hear more about that. What’s the business in Oxford? OrganOx? Maybe you’ve come across them.


ROB LEARNEY [00:04:37] Yeah that’s right.


BARRY SHRIER [00:04:37] And their concept was, look, instead of sticking a the organs on ice.


ROB LEARNEY [00:04:44] Yeah.


BARRY SHRIER [00:04:45] He does warm any machine with fluids and all sorts of things like that.


ROB LEARNEY [00:04:48] Well, exactly. Your own body can keep a kidney, can keep a liver alive for nearly 100 years.


BARRY SHRIER [00:04:52] Yes, but not mine. But I take your point.


BARRY SHRIER [00:04:56] Fascinating. Yes. But thanks for introduction, and how are you?


WILLIAM NASH [00:04:59] So my name’s William Nash. Yes. So I’m one of the co-founders of a company called Dovetail Lab. I mean, I came into this and started out looking at blockchain and distributed ledger technologies, working in finance, banking and law and trying to teach people about that. And obviously hugely rewarding, you know, you feel like making a big difference in people’s lives. So not quite, and eventually, with my co-founder looking at the other applications to this technology and I was kind of learning a lot about health and I happened to spend a lot of time in hospital. and like your mother, I had my records lost,.


BARRY SHRIER [00:05:36] Oh, dear.


WILLIAM NASH [00:05:36] And I turned up front operation and they said, Who? Who are you? What are you doing here? And then time I was kind of already working on some ideas for health care that really spurred it all off. And working with the company has said a company called Dovetail Lab we’ve recently been acquired by one of the UK’s largest provider of medical record technology.


BARRY SHRIER [00:05:57] Fabulous.


WILLIAM NASH [00:05:57] Yeah, we’re working on how consent for medical record sharing can be. You know, lots of stuff we will talk about will be 5 or 10 years out.


BARRY SHRIER [00:06:05] Yes.


WILLIAM NASH [00:06:05] I want to talk about this is 1 or 2 years out, really about making a difference. Very soon, a really tangible difference.


BARRY SHRIER [00:06:12] Excellent. The company is called Dovetail Labs?


WILLIAM NASH [00:06:14] Dovetail Lab.


BARRY SHRIER [00:06:14] And you mentioned other businesses, are they still going or as I said, no longer?


WILLIAM NASH [00:06:18] That’s long gone into the past. Yeah. Dovetail Lab takes up plenty of my time.


BARRY SHRIER [00:06:23] I can imagine. What’s the website for Dovetail Labs?


WILLIAM NASH [00:06:25] Just no “S” but 2 “L’s” in the middle.


BARRY SHRIER [00:06:29] Okay.


WILLIAM NASH [00:06:30] So, we only have 1 lab.


BARRY SHRIER [00:06:34] *laughs* Excellent, and Stewart, nice to see you.


STEWART SOUTHEY [00:06:35] Nice to see you too. How are you?


BARRY SHRIER [00:06:37] I’m very good. How are you? Yeah, I’m very, very good and glad to have you on board today. Thank you.


STEWART SOUTHEY [00:06:42] So my background is the “VMware barriers” as a doctor in the NHS and spent 20 years working as an anaesthetist. In the last sort of 10 years working as a consultant, I got more and more involved in the business side of health care, if you like, trying to get involved in management initiatives.


BARRY SHRIER [00:06:57] Excellent.


STEWART SOUTHEY [00:06:58] Did an MBA, got involved then thought I would like to see how it works in the private sector. So I worked with the strategy consulting firm in London. Found the whole med tech sector particularly fascinating and so it became a bit sort of obsessed, I guess. With that sort of sector and stumbled across a blockchain, and like most people, never, ever came back. So I’ve started a consulting firm called Catena, which is specifically looking at emerging technologies, so blockchain AI, IoT, big data analytics and then advising companies, particularly in the healthcare space. How they might want to engage with those new technologies and then use them in their business to gain advantage.


BARRY SHRIER [00:07:41] Excellent. It’s coming, isn’t it? All this blockchain “stuff”… *laughs*


STEWART SOUTHEY [00:07:44] And particularly in health care, I think health care is becoming very digital. So…


BARRY SHRIER [00:07:48] Yes.


STEWART SOUTHEY [00:07:48] It’s an exciting time to be working in the field.


BARRY SHRIER [00:07:50] Absolutely. How do you feel about being a clinician and now working on the business side? In what way does that inform your approach to the…


STEWART SOUTHEY [00:07:57] Well, I think it’s important to stay credible and to stay up to date with what’s happening in the front line. So I know, you know, I’m working in hospitals seeing what equipment they’re using, see what their processes are.


BARRY SHRIER [00:08:06] Yes.


STEWART SOUTHEY [00:08:07] And so it becomes easier for me to advise companies, you know, how they might want to improve it with technology, which I’m familiar with.


BARRY SHRIER [00:08:13] Excellent. Yeah, I can see that makes a difference. Often one hears about technology businesses which don’t quite get exactly what’s going on at the point of use because maybe there aren’t clinicians or other patients or providers that are directly involved in forming the development of the technology.


STEWART SOUTHEY [00:08:29] Well, I think so. But I’d like to believe is my niche and my company’s niche is that I have the medical experience, the business, so…


BARRY SHRIER [00:08:35] Yes.


STEWART SOUTHEY [00:08:35] Strategy consulting experience and then a master’s in digital currency and some block trained start-up experience.


BARRY SHRIER [00:08:41] Yes.


STEWART SOUTHEY [00:08:42] And so, you know, putting all of those together, I think I can help start-ups in healthcare and multinationals and healthcare.


BARRY SHRIER [00:08:49] Exactly, yeah. Excellent. Well, nice to see you guys, obviously. And thanks again for coming. We’re talking about blockchain tonight. So can one person tell us, especially in particular for the audience who might not really know what blockchain is? Is there a good simple explanation for a layman?


ROB LEARNEY [00:09:05] Sure, let me give it a go. Blockchain is all about data sharing.


BARRY SHRIER [00:09:09] Okay.


ROB LEARNEY [00:09:10] And that’s it, really.


BARRY SHRIER [00:09:11] Okay.


ROB LEARNEY [00:09:12] It’s about making sure. Yeah.


BARRY SHRIER [00:09:14] Perfect.


ROB LEARNEY [00:09:14] It’s a particular flavour of data sharing whereby both of us hold an exact copy of the data that we are going to work on.


BARRY SHRIER [00:09:24] Okay.


ROB LEARNEY [00:09:24] And if I make any changes to my copy, those are replicated in your copy as well.


BARRY SHRIER [00:09:30] Oh, perfect. Unlike the Excel files that I sent to all my collegue which are already out of date.


ROB LEARNEY [00:09:35] So that if I try to make any edits here or changes here without permission, you can tell straightaway and vice versa. Meaning that..


BARRY SHRIER [00:09:43] Very interesting.


ROB LEARNEY [00:09:43] Meaning that these are mathematically locked together.


BARRY SHRIER [00:09:46] Okay.


ROB LEARNEY [00:09:47] Because of that and the irrevocable nature and the unrewarding ability of it, we can both come to trust the data that’s sitting in front of us.


BARRY SHRIER [00:09:54] Superb.


ROB LEARNEY [00:09:55] And build a new relationship between ourselves without ever maybe having met.


BARRY SHRIER [00:09:59] Mm hmm.


ROB LEARNEY [00:10:00] Blockchain itself is a is a subtype of distributed ledgers. So the whole world of distributed ledger is much larger.


BARRY SHRIER [00:10:08] Yes.


ROB LEARNEY [00:10:09] And actually sits within the world of distributed computing.


BARRY SHRIER [00:10:12] Yes.


ROB LEARNEY [00:10:12] But we won’t get into all these “weeds” but essentially blockchain is extremely exciting. It woke up a lot of people to the potential of… Distributing processes, because in the world that we live, lots of processes and things, particularly in healthcare. Involve multiple people who don’t necessarily ever meet face to face.


BARRY SHRIER [00:10:31] Right.


ROB LEARNEY [00:10:32] Coming to a common agreement about something.


BARRY SHRIER [00:10:34] So the theme “of that cross” comes to the centre. So what’s an example of a blockchain application? Is that the right word is an application?


SIMON HOOPER [00:10:43] Well, in healthcare, the ones that have come to the fore initially are supply chain based.


BARRY SHRIER [00:10:49] Okay.


SIMON HOOPER [00:10:49] But what you’ve got is in any healthcare, many situations you have a movement of a product think a farmer product for along a supply chain. Many different suppliers, partisan that chain. Blockchain makes it possible to the knowledge of that transaction to move along that chain without abuse taking place.


BARRY SHRIER [00:11:06] Right.


SIMON HOOPER [00:11:06] Because the data is so effectively locked up. So it’s a it’s a very secure process.


BARRY SHRIER [00:11:11] Okay. But then that reduces what? Corruption? Or…


SIMON HOOPER [00:11:14] Well, I think what is the figure is that I think it’s 35%t of all farmer products in the world are fake.


BARRY SHRIER [00:11:18] Okay.


SIMON HOOPER [00:11:18] About 4 million people die a year from fake farmer products, that can completely alleviate that risk.


BARRY SHRIER [00:11:23] Right.


SIMON HOOPER [00:11:24] So it’s powerful.


BARRY SHRIER [00:11:25] Yes, I can mention other examples or other applications.


WILLIAM NASH [00:11:29] I mean, to be frank, the work that we’re doing is already we’ve trialled it in the NHS. So what we specifically look at Dovetail Lab is with data sharing. Specifically the consent to share data. So the data sharing happens off chain as it happens in a normal way. It’s incripted, it’s sent just between the two organisations and what we keep on chain is the record of the consent. So that contains the people that were involved, the sender, the receiver and the person. And it contains the specific data that was sent. We’re only talking here about coded data. So medical data fits broadly into two categories, coded and uncoded.


BARRY SHRIER [00:12:04] Okay.


WILLIAM NASH [00:12:04] Coded it is just it’s got a code or number associated with it. Uncoded, it’s just that the patient looks well. It’s unstructured data. So we take the data and the reason why we use a blockchain is it’s very difficult if we said, “hey, I’ve got a centralised system and I’m going to keep all the consent and you just trust me, take my- I’m a good guy. You take my word for it”.


BARRY SHRIER [00:12:24] Right.


WILLIAM NASH [00:12:24] It doesn’t really work.


BARRY SHRIER [00:12:26] You’re the provider of “in sent” files.


WILLIAM NASH [00:12:29] Yeah. Now, if I was IBM, maybe it would work, but I’m not. And even if you’re IBM, there’s still a lot of business risk tied up in that and there was also competition. And if it was the NHS, the NHS is fantastic at providing medical care. It’s one of the best in the world.


BARRY SHRIER [00:12:43] Absolutely.


WILLIAM NASH [00:12:44] Is it the best at providing I.T. services to an ecosystem? I don’t think they say they are. There’s no obvious candidate to be the central posit tree of consent. So what you do is you distribute it between everybody who needs to know about consent.


BARRY SHRIER [00:12:57] And the trust is there by virtue of the structure of a blockchain something.


SIMON HOOPER [00:13:03] Yeah.


BARRY SHRIER [00:13:03] Yup,.


ROB LEARNEY [00:13:04] Yeah.


WILLIAM NASH [00:13:04] Yup.


BARRY SHRIER [00:13:04] Well, that’s interesting.


STEWART SOUTHEY [00:13:05] I think what it allows is it allows somebody reading data to verify the the integrity of the data. So it verifies the author and the content and the origins.


BARRY SHRIER [00:13:15] Excellent.


STEWART SOUTHEY [00:13:16] And whether or not it’s been altered in any way.


BARRY SHRIER [00:13:17] Excellent.


STEWART SOUTHEY [00:13:18] So you may not I mean, you can still put rubbish data into the system, but at least you know that what you’re reading is what the person who sent it to you said it was and that log hasn’t changed.


ROB LEARNEY [00:13:28] And blockchains don’t track truth. Let’s think computers have never cared about truth.


BARRY SHRIER [00:13:33] And so garbage in, garbage out. But with dew knowledge of.


ROB LEARNEY [00:13:36] Liability.


BARRY SHRIER [00:13:36] The whole journal during “the..”


STEWART SOUTHEY [00:13:38] You have a clear trail of the accountability and the auditability of…


BARRY SHRIER [00:13:41] Yes.


SIMON HOOPER [00:13:42] One of the big things, of course, is you’ve got the ability to cut out the middleman. I mean, all of our lives, all our lives are dominated by the middlemen.


BARRY SHRIER [00:13:49] Yes.


SIMON HOOPER [00:13:49] I think the you know, the central organisation is holding the data. It becomes possible to go peer to peer.


BARRY SHRIER [00:13:55] Right. So so the so called data mediation.


SIMON HOOPER [00:13:58] Yes, exactly. And that’s a big power for change.


BARRY SHRIER [00:14:01] I can imagine one of my heroes are Marc Andreessen and Ben Horowitz from a 1-6 said the American P.C. Firm in Silicon Valley. Marc, I guess, was the co-founder of Netscape, world’s first ever browser. And they do a lot of good podcasts, which I highly recommend and I remember them talking about blockchain. And they said that over the many arrows of commercial development over the ages. New technologies bring new benefits which didn’t exist before. Like telegraph, broad, timely communication and web broad remote business transactions which couldn’t occur so easily before. And they said, is this correct? That blockchain brings a new element which didn’t exist before, which is trust. And is that the big contribution and how what impact will that have? What’s what’s going to change?


ROB LEARNEY [00:14:52] Well, that’s the interesting thing. This is where we are at the moment, is we’re exploring what exactly that means to business today.


BARRY SHRIER [00:14:58] Oh okay.


ROB LEARNEY [00:14:59] So it’s there. It’s been invented. It’s been presented to the world. There’s been a lot of innovation on top of it. You may have heard of all those “I” CEOs back in 2017.


BARRY SHRIER [00:15:09] Sure.


ROB LEARNEY [00:15:09] People throwing ideas into a pot about “we want to do this”, “we won’t do this”, “we won’t do this”. Which ones have survived? And which ones haven’t? You know, we’re in this sort of Cambrian explosion of exploring what this new trust model means.


BARRY SHRIER [00:15:21] Right. Oh, okay.


ROB LEARNEY [00:15:22] And trying to build businesses out of improving trust relationships.


SIMON HOOPER [00:15:26] See, I partly don’t buy that because trust. The consumer does really care much about trust. I mean, they’ve been basically letting their data be exploited by these large at “the fans” that don’t care. As long as they get a product that gives them pleasure, gives them connectivity, that’s all they care. So trust is important and we have to have it for our business. What I think is the critical thing is the fact that blockchain brings a means of reward tokenization. A chance for the consumer to to get some reward for participating and letting their data be used. And if you can build that relationship.


BARRY SHRIER [00:15:56] Was not that available before?


SIMON HOOPER [00:15:58] I don’t see Facebook sending me a cheque ever. I don’t get any money from Facebook, you know.


WILLIAM NASH [00:16:01] So you mean they could have done. I mean, there was always a choice, why?


SIMON HOOPER [00:16:08] Because the consumers are beginning to see that they should.


BARRY SHRIER [00:16:11] Oh, interesting. So tokenization, what does that mean? Anybody want to have a go at helping me to understand?


STEWART SOUTHEY [00:16:16] I would love to hear the voices of the panel but I think when you’re representing something with a token and you can give it a digital identity, if you like. So depending on the utility of the of the way you’re defining the token, obviously determines how you have this whole term. How this term is used, so if it’s a fractionalised ownership of something so you can tokenised the ownership of something and you have a little piece of equity, that’s one version. If you have a token which is supposed to represent something that that reduces frictions of transaction within an ecosystem.


BARRY SHRIER [00:16:50] Right.


SIMON HOOPER [00:16:50] So you go into your casino, for example,  and you have dollars and pounds, whatever else, and something give you a little plastic disk. Everybody accepts that and it’s very easy to use across a literal machines and you can just go in and cash it in. Andx that has utility within a system. And then you have these these other ways of fraternising ownership.


BARRY SHRIER [00:17:10] So, for example, right now you can whatever you can own shares in Goldman Sachs. That’s a token…. the shares. So where is the problem now? Which currently I cannot solve by whatever, going onto a stock exchange or going to a casino and buying some chips. How will- am I correct that? Would you like to bring this up? Am I correct? There’s a new type of tokenization you would blockchain enables.


WILLIAM NASH [00:17:38] So I think people would argue I mean, I’d be interested to hear the views of the panel. I think people would argue that. I personally would say this, there’s very little difference.


BARRY SHRIER [00:17:45] Okay.


WILLIAM NASH [00:17:46] That would be my view, there’s very little difference. You had tokens for literally thousands of years because all the way back, I think there’s an argument to be made that one of the big differences is these kind of smart contracts.


BARRY SHRIER [00:17:57] Okay.


WILLIAM NASH [00:17:57] People would argue so smart contract is very simply a piece of code that runs distributed across this network. Where there’s token is, it’s also existing and any can have kind of simple logic in it. If you both pay me, then I pay- if A and B pay me, I pay C. If only A pays me, I get to keep it and in theory, you could build more complex logic on top of that. And there have been big problems with this. The Dow is the most famous, people go insane, the code is the law, the code is the law. And then the code does something. And then we all agree, “oh, it’s not supposed to be” we’re going to call that a “bug”. So we label it a bug and even though the code is doing what the code does, the code always does what it does.


BARRY SHRIER [00:18:34] Yes.


WILLIAM NASH [00:18:35] We decide because that’s a bug. It’s different and we end up reverting on our human system. I think there are flaws in this smart contract attitude. But I see why people are drawn to it, because it’s so expensive to execute, complicated securities contracts. It’s the tens of thousands of pounds.


SIMON HOOPER [00:18:51] Token is a means for a consumer who knows nothing about blockchain. And blockchain will disappear by the time people stop talking about blockchain, it will be operating in background.


BARRY SHRIER [00:19:00] Right.


SIMON HOOPER [00:19:00] What will be at the forefront will be these consumer engagement mechanisms. A token will be something that consumers relate to because it has a value. It can be traded. So what we’re doing, in is making it possible for that token to be used across a multitude of scenarios.


BARRY SHRIER [00:19:16] Oh, okay.


SIMON HOOPER [00:19:16] Your gain a token for doing something positive in care. You’ll be rewarded for good care practise.


BARRY SHRIER [00:19:23] Okay, this is the provider of care or the patient?


SIMON HOOPER [00:19:25] Well it could be anybody. So I mean right now, my son gets tokens. We haven’t launched yet, we’re launching in a few months time.


BARRY SHRIER [00:19:33] Oh, excellent.


SIMON HOOPER [00:19:34] But he’s got a little paper ones and he’s stacking them up, and why does he get them? Because he pays attention to his grandmother in Latvia and he helps her know candies because he gets rewards.


BARRY SHRIER [00:19:43] Oh, fascinating.


SIMON HOOPER [00:19:44] But little by little, he begins to enjoy that engagement because they’ve found commonality of interest.


BARRY SHRIER [00:19:48] Okay.


SIMON HOOPER [00:19:49] So the token leads to change in the care process.


BARRY SHRIER [00:19:51] Right.


SIMON HOOPER [00:19:52] And you can use those- he can use those tokens in a multitude of circumstances. Ultimately, he’ll be able to trade them for Xbox games or down the store or whatever.


BARRY SHRIER [00:20:00] Excellent.


SIMON HOOPER [00:20:00] But if the token becomes a catalyst for an improved engagement and in our case, it’s in health care. You have to be in other areas of life.


BARRY SHRIER [00:20:08] Okay.


SIMON HOOPER [00:20:09] It’s tangible, my mother used to collect Greensville stamps, I don’t know if you remeber those?


BARRY SHRIER [00:20:12] Yeah, exactly.


SIMON HOOPER [00:20:12] They’re tokens.


STEWART SOUTHEY [00:20:13] Okay.


STEWART SOUTHEY [00:20:13] Now the reason that has value goes, comes back to the questions about what blockchain provide? What it adds to the thing? Is the fact that digital became something that you could copy? So you know, we had all these counterfeiting measures in money, you know, anti-counterfeiting measures and money to try and prevent that sort of thing.


BARRY SHRIER [00:20:31] Sure.


STEWART SOUTHEY [00:20:32] And then you have digital copies, which are clearly very easy to copies of this. This provides a way for something that has value, whether it’s a token or a bit of currency that you’ve created. To be identified as yours, for you to have ownership of it.


BARRY SHRIER [00:20:44] Right.


SIMON HOOPER [00:20:45] For you to be able to transfer that ownership to somebody else.


BARRY SHRIER [00:20:48] Should you wish to.


STEWART SOUTHEY [00:20:48] Should you wish to, and that be agreed by consensus of all the people who are in that little ecosystem and that mechanism.


ROB LEARNEY [00:20:54] Well, this goes this goes back to your original question about, you know, what are the what are the killer apps for blockchain and the sorts of things in this? This was it.


ROB LEARNEY [00:21:02] The invention of Bitcoin which created the blockchain was brand new- was a brand new thing presented to the world. Because now you and I could agree on a common truth without having to refer to a third party.


BARRY SHRIER [00:21:16] Okay.


ROB LEARNEY [00:21:16] That would hold the database saying you have five pounds, you have ten pounds. Instead, we could trust this thing between us without someone else telling us what was in it.


SIMON HOOPER [00:21:25] You had a really good point, and that is that the Bitcoin was launched in response to a specific situation financial crisis, financial corruption, financial abuse. That was why it was launched. And so now we’re seeing tokens being launched and big happening.


BARRY SHRIER [00:21:39] Yes.


SIMON HOOPER [00:21:39] In response to specific situations, consumers are getting sick of their data being exploited to the benefit of everyone else apart from themselves.


BARRY SHRIER [00:21:46] Yes.


SIMON HOOPER [00:21:47] A token can address that.


BARRY SHRIER [00:21:48] Yes.


SIMON HOOPER [00:21:48] They’re getting they’re getting dissatisfied with the wealth gap. So there’s a lot of things going on right now annd Bitcoin and any coin, for that matter, can be very responsive to some of those social situations.


BARRY SHRIER [00:21:59] Yes, so for example, in healthcare. Is there data about me? Does my GP have a hanging file with some old scribbles in it? When I was in hospital. Whatever. 325 years ago. Is that a hanging file of data? And who does that data belong to? Where does that depend? On what country you live in? And does it matter? Consumers don’t care about their data. So what’s the problem? Why will blockchain help us here?


WILLIAM NASH [00:22:30] So it’s a really interesting conversation that a lot of chat about consumers will own their own data or do own or should own and I think it’s important to say that right now they don’t.


BARRY SHRIER [00:22:41] And what does it mean? What is consumer data?


WILLIAM NASH [00:22:43] For starters, I would say like the language of ownership is really unhelpful andd the CEO of the Open Data Foundation Data Institute, ODI, talked about this at Cognex last year. How the language of ownership of data is really helpful because if I own a house and I sell you the house, I no longer have any relationship with that house. So I don’t care whether you trash it, whether you burn it down, what you said when it’s no big deal. If I sell you my data, you sell it on. It still relates to me. It continues to relate to me. There’s lots of reasons why the language of ownership. So I’ll say, who’s that data controller and in the case of your medical data with your GP, the Lloyd George record, which is the paper record, belongs to the secretary state physical paper belongs to the secretary state’s health at “Hancock”.


BARRY SHRIER [00:23:26] Okay.


WILLIAM NASH [00:23:26] The digital record is held within a company, data controller is your GP practise federation.


BARRY SHRIER [00:23:37] You mean the hard drive on the hard left top pc at my GP’s office? She’s the digital controller?


WILLIAM NASH [00:23:43]  They are data controller under GDPR, which means that a person who gets to control it.


BARRY SHRIER [00:23:48] Okay.


WILLIAM NASH [00:23:48] So let’s do that and then you kind of you go on this like this curve going out like that and you have all these other records and everywhere you go at every hospital you’ve wandered into. We’ll have a little piece meal record of you going down to your feet and they all have their own data controllers. And you are the data subject to all those relationships.


BARRY SHRIER [00:24:04] Okay.


WILLIAM NASH [00:24:05] Which gives you some rights over that data.


BARRY SHRIER [00:24:07] Okay, and what’s the problem?


SIMON HOOPER [00:24:09] The problem is I’m making so much money out of it. In terms of that sort of medical data. In my view, less issue with it because it’s serving a very valid purpose.


BARRY SHRIER [00:24:19] Sure.


SIMON HOOPER [00:24:19] That satisfies the needs of the individual but it’s not the other data that goes with it. So much data about your life that is collected during the health process.


BARRY SHRIER [00:24:27] Right.


SIMON HOOPER [00:24:28] And you know, that data is being used by a multitude of parties who are making a lot of money out of it.


BARRY SHRIER [00:24:31] Okay.


SIMON HOOPER [00:24:32] Why shouldn’t we all share in it? You know, this is doable and then one is the consumers never asked and said “well, could I have a little bit about”.


BARRY SHRIER [00:24:38] It’s a commercial issue? Not commercial, is this a philosophy of right and wrong issue? It’s about making money off my data, they don’t deserve that wealth?


SIMON HOOPER [00:24:54] Well, it’s a balance. I mean, if they build the system, the mechanism that makes it possible for that data to exist and serve a worthy purpose, fine. They deserve reward for it but in our society today, there’s a lot of imbalances going on right now, why we’re seeing so many social issues surfacing. So let’s address some of those balances.


BARRY SHRIER [00:25:12] And can we sort that out?


SIMON HOOPER [00:25:13] We have a mechanism that can bring trust and…


BARRY SHRIER [00:25:15] Okay, and that’s the rule of blockchain? Is to add a layer of trust and clarity?


ROB LEARNEY [00:25:22] I see the potential future of distributed ledger in health care as being an underpinning infrastructure, allowing parties to trade data and exchange data more liquidly between each other, but also with attribution tracking so that you, as a patient to a controller, still retain that ultimate legal control over who’s got access to your data or where it’s going.


BARRY SHRIER [00:25:45] Could you rephrase that?


ROB LEARNEY [00:25:47] So it’s the e-mail, it’s a future digital infrastructure, much like e-mail has moved post into the 21st century.


BARRY SHRIER [00:25:56] Okay.


ROB LEARNEY [00:25:56] Distributed ledgers held by multiple healthcare parties will create that future, that future into interoperability layer between them. That’s my vision anyway.


WILLIAM NASH [00:26:08] I mean, the other thing is that it’s fantastic and it’s great to be here. But I feel I’ve always felt that the blockchain- I’m amazed people still talk about it. It’s a infrastructure technology, it’s a network technology. It’s supremely boring when you get down to it. I mean, really,.


BARRY SHRIER [00:26:23] I disagree, but uhm-


WILLIAM NASH [00:26:24] I mean, it’s great. I mean, but “TLS” I mean, “tractable security” is really interesting when you get that. Once people look at this any of these subjects. Right. But do you know how a telegraph works? You know? No one knows how to tell you, but everyone you know no one knows how telegram well.


BARRY SHRIER [00:26:39] So I guess the latest thing was stainless steel.


WILLIAM NASH [00:26:41] Yeah, but it’s a tool.


BARRY SHRIER [00:26:42] Whenever it was invented in the 1860, it won’t be talk for a decade. I got really proudly announced that you are involved with stainless steel product anymore


ROB LEARNEY [00:26:50] I got “2 cent vanadium”.


WILLIAM NASH [00:26:52] But importantly, it’s a tool.


WILLIAM NASH [00:26:54] It’s a tool. It does. It has. It has “funt past” features.


BARRY SHRIER [00:26:57] Yes.


WILLIAM NASH [00:26:57] These features have a benefit. It actually turns out to have lots of different features.


BARRY SHRIER [00:27:00] Yes.


WILLIAM NASH [00:27:00] Turns out to have some downsides which people are don’t sure about too much and it’s good for something. But I agree, I think in future we will, no one will know what they will have to operate.


BARRY SHRIER [00:27:11] Like if you step back, the theme is trust and distributedness, by whatever means.


ROB LEARNEY [00:27:19] Because the healthcare services distributed. There is no central control point inwhich you can go and say “oh, you must have all my data, you’re the central health authority”. It doesn’t work.


BARRY SHRIER [00:27:29] Very, very interesting. Unfortunately, we’ve run out of time, so I’m sorry about that. But maybe why do we get back together in a month or two? And let’s continue the conversation because I think there’s a million extremely interesting things and that in particular, we’d love to learn maybe less about the technology platforms, like you say, the layers, but more about the issues in health care and what some challenges are out there that I’d really, really love to drill down with you guys and to get your expert input on. And I’m also extremely confident that our viewers would love to learn more about that. So please, if you guys will come back maybe in a couple of months and let’s continue the discussion. And so we have a few minutes left. So if you don’t mind, I just want to invite you maybe to go around the table. And if you have a final closing comment about blockchain and health care or a vision of the future that you’re working to achieve. I think our viewers would absolutely love to hear about that kind of thing. So, Stewart, please, just a little minute or two in summary.


STEWART SOUTHEY [00:28:22] Sure. I have a very utopian vision, which you know, may take a little time to develop. But essentially, I believe in a co-op petition sort of model.


BARRY SHRIER [00:28:35] Okay.


SIMON HOOPER [00:28:36] And I think that is the future of healthcare. There’s too much data out there that is in “silos”, is too much…There’s too little collaboration, and I think that multinationals and, all the various stakeholders within the healthcare ecosystem can join together and work as one and have a new version of “healtification”.


BARRY SHRIER [00:28:56] Excellent. Good stuff., thank you very much.


WILLIAM NASH [00:28:59] I mean, I’m personally really excited about the next few years and solving some of the really small problems that are occurring with data sharing and with consent. I mean, this is just really basic stuff, like being able to share data with next of kin like very quickly, or being able to agree to donate your data after you die.


BARRY SHRIER [00:29:16] Yes.


WILLIAM NASH [00:29:16] And sale or donate this to medical science because you can donate your body to medical science. That sounds actually really easy, really difficult to donate your data. And then these are problems that we can fix in in the next 12 to 24 months. I’m really thankful to those problems.


BARRY SHRIER [00:29:28]  Yup, likewise and very good points. Thanks for raising those.


ROB LEARNEY [00:29:31] I think you’ve heard a little bit about my vision. I agree with both of these, that there’s got to be this permission, less innovation that allows anyone to come on, tap into an existing infrastructure and build brand new apps or services or ways of humans interacting digitally with health care data.


BARRY SHRIER [00:29:48] Yes.


ROB LEARNEY [00:29:48] And maybe some of these elements that are born digital that are going to be the first to be traded in this way. So you want x rays, your blood results, things like this, not the handwritten unstructured things.


BARRY SHRIER [00:29:58] But excellent without the violation of the individualisation…


ROB LEARNEY [00:30:02] Without the violation because the right has delayed the infrastructure layer prevents you from doing it without the right permissions.


BARRY SHRIER [00:30:08] I think I understand it now. No, brilliant. Thank you very much, and Simon.


SIMON HOOPER [00:30:12] Well, we have a brand new app, so we look for it in November.


BARRY SHRIER [00:30:15] Yes.


SIMON HOOPER [00:30:16] and our mission is to bring the consumer into the story because blockchain will disappear into the background. We want to have the consumer benefit from their data, from being able to participate more effectively in the healthcare journey.


BARRY SHRIER [00:30:29] Yes.


SIMON HOOPER [00:30:29] And to, as a side, deploy the token to everyone’s benefit from the kids right through to the grandparents. So, take a look


BARRY SHRIER [00:30:37] Superb. Hey, you guys, so nice to see you all, obviously and thank you once again. Incredibly interesting conversation. Look forward to continuing it and I hope on behalf of our viewers, they found this informative and interesting and educational. I have certainly so. Thanks once again. Really, really appreciate it. Nice to see you guys, thank you. So thank you once again to all of our viewers. Once again, my name is Barry Shrier, I have been your host, this is GIANT’s Healthy Innovators, Live TV. We hope you’ve enjoyed this episode and I’d like to thank our sponsors. First of all, a Grovelands, which are a leading European management consultancy. Thanks also to Tech Data, who are the European leading distributor of IBM Watson Health Care Technology, and Tech Data are also building a cluster of health care, technology, innovation, businesses in Europe. If you want to learn more, please visit the tech data website. I’d also like to thank our primary sponsor. GIANT, GIANT is an acronym, it stands for Global Innovation and New Technology. And once a year is the GIANT Health Event, which this year is 15 and 16 of October in London, England. And the website for the giant health event is www.giant.heatlh if you work in healthcare and technology and innovation, then you’re invited to come to the giant health event this year. Thank you very much. Lastly, I’d like to find, I’d like to thank the best television studio on Earth, which is Disruptive Live. Thank you to the Disruptive Live team, we love working with you guys and we’re grateful for all of your fabulous support, your genius’s, and we absolutely are grateful for all of your good work. Thank you very much. My name is Barry Shrier. This has been this week’s episode of GIANT’s Healthy Innovators, Live TV. Thank you.