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Giant Healthy Innovators – S2 Ep5

Giant Healthy Innovators – S2 Ep5

BARRY SHRIER [00:00:26] Hello and welcome to this week’s episode of GIANT’s Healthy Innovators Live TV. I’m your host and my name is Barry Shrier. And I’d like to say thank you to the many tens of thousands of viewers who tune in to watch our weekly episodes featuring some fabulous innovators and scientists and academics and business people who are all at the forefront of creating the latest healthcare, technology, innovation and improving health care all around. To begin with, I’d like to say thank you to our sponsors. We have Grovelands, who are in international management consultancy and recruitment business. Thank you to Grovelands for your support of Healthy Innovators TV. And we also have Tech Data, who are a global I.T. distributor and support company. So thanks again to Grovelands and Tech Data for your valuable sponsorship. We appreciate that. I would also like to mention, that these episodes are sponsored by the GIANT Health Event. GIANT is Europe’s largest and most established health care innovation technology event. We gather thousands and thousands of people together every year. And this year, the event is from the 15th to the 16th of October, here in London. So if you’re involved in health care or technology or innovation, we’d love to see you. The website for a GIANT Health Event is So we look forward to hearing from you. So this week we have some fabulous guests. Thank you very much for joining us. Keith and Bijendra, nice to see you guys. As you know, the format is I’d like to ask you guys to introduce yourselves, please, and to talk a little bit about what you’re doing and what some of your interests are in health care. And then we’re going to have a general conversation about how to move forward with adopting new innovation, how to accelerate health care, to deliver better outcomes. We all share one vision, which is to improve the health and the well-being of people around the world by supporting innovation and facilitating health tech entrepreneurs. So it’s great to have you guys on the show. Thank you very much. So, Keith, please, if you don’t mind, if you can introduce yourself and tell us a little bit about what you’re doing.


KEITH ERREY [00:02:30] Sure. Thanks, Barry. And thanks to GIANT, it’s great to be here. So I’m Keith Errey and I’m the CEO and co-founder of Isansys Lifecare, Ltd. Isansys is a business where we are really automating, one of the basic processes of health care, and that is knowing what a patient’s physiology actually is, what their physiological status is.


BARRY SHRIER [00:02:54] Excellent.


KEITH ERREY [00:02:54] In the hospital, it’s called taking “OB’s” and that is done either by nurses working manually or sometimes done with machines by the bed. And what we have done is not only automate it, but make it wireless so patients can have it all their data taken all the time and be totally free, be totally able to walk around without the tyranny of cables and wires.


BARRY SHRIER [00:03:18] That’s superb, great accomplishments and congratulations on what you’ve done so far. So the company’s called Isansys.


KEITH ERREY [00:03:23] Isansys.


BARRY SHRIER [00:03:25] What’s the website?


KEITH ERREY [00:03:26] So we’re


BARRY SHRIER [00:03:28] How’s that spelt?


KEITH ERREY [00:03:29] So I-S-A-N-S-Y-S .com


BARRY SHRIER [00:03:33] So, for example, if you’re a patient in a hospital and the nurse puts that little thing on your finger, like those types of monitoring devices, but more advanced?


KEITH ERREY [00:03:41] Well, we use that kind of monitoring device because that’s measuring your oxygen saturation in your blood. And that’s an important, vital sign. So the system we make is able to take 5 major vital signs, which is heart rate, respiration rate temperature, blood pressure and oxygen saturation. Right. But on top of that, we allow nurses to add in some of their own information because this system is building up to something which is called NEWS or the National Early Warning Score. And “NEWS” has at least one nurse reported parameter, which is is a patient conscious or not? Well, that’s a scale by which a nurse will make that judgement. And then she can just tap it in at the bedside. Just on a tablet, on a screen and ward’s become paperless overnight.


BARRY SHRIER [00:04:30] Wow, that’s fabulous. Thank you very much for introduction and very keen to hear more about that during this episode. Thank you. And I’m glad to have you onboard today. Thanks. And the Bijendra, nice to see you. Haven’t seen you in weeks, have I?


BIJENDRA PATEL [00:04:41] I know. Well, not so long ago. “zup here?”


BARRY SHRIER [00:04:45] Exactly. Yeah. Thank you for joining us. So I’d like to introduce you and let us know what you’re doing these days.


BIJENDRA PATEL [00:04:50] Yes, thanks and “wedding bells” for Barry and thanks to GIANT. I’m a NHS consultant “of the norm” and an academic surgeon. So my role is clinical practise as one of the university education.


BARRY SHRIER [00:05:03] Okay.


BIJENDRA PATEL [00:05:04] And I’m also the Medical Director for the start-up tech company called Medical Reality.


BARRY SHRIER [00:05:09] Okay. Excellent.


BIJENDRA PATEL [00:05:10] Which is why we are using technology to disrupt surgical education.


BARRY SHIER [00:05:15] Great.


BIJENDRA PATEL [00:05:16] “It takes” 15 years to train a surgeon.


BARRY SHRIER [00:05:18] Wow.


BIJENDRA PATEL [00:05:19] And in any medical school, you can have 3 or 4 medical students attending an “operation” and wtch me operate and learn.


BARRY SHRIER [00:05:28] Okay.


BIJENDRA PATEL [00:05:28] So you can imagine if it takes 15 years to train a surgeon, if you have to improve workforce training and education and efficiency.


BARRY SHRIER [00:05:36] Yes.


BIJENDRA PATEL [00:05:36] It’s going to be challenging.


BARRY SHRIER [00:05:38] Yes, absolutely. And I guess it’s not scalable, is it? If you have 3 or 4 students who are in a theatre or watching you? How do you do that? Times the requirement for training many thousands or tens of thousands of students.


BIJENDRA PATEL [00:05:50] The answer is watching reality.


BARRY SHRIER [00:05:51] Yes. So this company is called Medical Realities. And do they have a website?


BIJENDRA PATEL [00:05:55] “There were yeah” It’s


BARRY SHRIER [00:05:58] Okay. And tell us some more about that, because that’s fascinating.


BIJENDRA PATEL [00:06:00] So what we are doing is we’re recording the entire operating theatre, the procedure in VR.


BARRY SHRIER [00:06:07] Okay.


BIJENDRA PATEL [00:06:07] And using your mobile phone is all you need to download the Medical Reality’s app on your mobile phone.


BARRY SHRIER [00:06:16] Right.


BIJENDRA PATEL [00:06:16] Any VR headset you can put it on. You can stream demand at the operating theatre. Any number of people…


BARRY SHRIER [00:06:23] 90%…


BIJENDRA PATEL [00:06:23] Of the operating theatre.


BARRY SHRIER [00:06:24] Yes.


BIJENDRA PATEL [00:06:25] Can learn from expert surgeons.


BARRY SHRIER [00:06:26] Any number?


BIJENDRA PATEL [00:06:28] Any number.


BARRY SHRIER [00:06:28] So you could have 25,000 students overseas, participating in this exercise.


BIJENDRA PATEL [00:06:34] If I’m right, the global mobile phone penetration is about.


BARRY SHRIER [00:06:40] 2 to 3 billion? Or more?


BIJENDRA PATEL [00:06:42] They can all tuned in.


BARRY SHRIER [00:06:43] Magnificent. That’s the promise of technology, I suppose. Is technology, is scalability. But there’s challenges, aren’t there? So, for example, with your business, what kind of challenges have you been experiencing in your journey?


KEITH ERREY [00:06:55] Well, I think it’s actually related to what we’ve just heard from the Bijendra that at the time it takes to train somebody in the medical profession, particularly a doctor or a nurse, is very long. So it’s quite difficult to come along with new technologies and then expect people who’ve had 10, 15, maybe more years of training to throw away what they were doing and adopt something new.


BARRY SHRIER [00:07:20] Yes.


KEITH ERREY [00:07:21] And because in a very real sense, we as patients or as healthcare consumers are giving those people life and death decisions over us.


BARRY SHRIER [00:07:30] Yeah.


KEITH ERREY [00:07:30] So it’s quite serious stuff. So it’s not easy then to say I’m going to try something new.


BARRY SHRIER [00:07:36] Sure. “Scary is the patient”, wouldn’t it?


KEITH ERREY [00:07:39] Oh, very much.


BARRY SHRIER [00:07:40] “Sedation” comes in and says, well, I haven’t used this “widget” before but I’m going to try it on you.


KEITH ERREY [00:07:44] Exactly. But, if we, if that new widget is able to be part of a B-R based training programme, for instance. Things like that, we’ll be able to speed the adoption of new technologies, which will be fabulous.


BARRY SHRIER [00:07:58] Yeah. Excellent. Very exciting. Exciting. But of course, we have these concerns. We have the legacy issues of medical education and the challenge of resources and that type of thing. Where do you see the future in terms of adoption of your types of technologies? Is it equal around the world or are you finding different experiences in different environments?


KEITH ERREY [00:08:20] Yeah. Different health care is delivered differently and paid for differently in every different country. And that’s also a little bit of a challenge. If you’re a relatively small business.


BARRY SHRIER [00:08:30] Right.


KEITH ERREY [00:08:30] You’re operating globally. You need to kind of get your head around this and you need to work out some business models at work. So that’s one of the things. But we do find that certain places are able to adopt technology a little faster. Okay, so we’re doing quite well in Scandinavia and that wouldn’t surprise anybody that the Scandinavians can do this. That may be more surprising is that we are also doing very well in India.


BARRY SHRIER [00:08:57] Oh okay.


KEITH ERREY [00:08:57] That’s a big pull through in India. And I think what we’re seeing there is that this is new technology and it maps very well into a whole new digital paradigm, if you like.


BARRY SHRIER [00:09:07] Right.


KEITH ERREY [00:09:07] That is really is really being practised in a very wide scale in India.


BARRY SHRIER [00:09:13] Yes. So, you know, that’s fascinating.


KEITH ERREY [00:09:15] Interesting stuff going on there.


BARRY SHRIER [00:09:16] Absolutely, and this concept of digital paradigm, I’m not sure how old you guys are, but I’m very old and I guess I’m what you call it, a digital foreigner. And the youth of today are the digital natives, aren’t they? They grew up with smartphones and whatever. And so this concept of digital paradigm, I guess, could be coming on stream. Maybe young medical students these days are a little more familiar with these technologies than the elder senior consultants. And I don’t know if that will have an impact. Is medical education quite diverse around the world? And is there a role for the immersive technologies to level things out or to create greater opportunity there?


BIJENDRA PATEL [00:09:53] Yeah, I mean, just like medical practise, the medical education is quite diverse.


BARRY SHRIER [00:09:58] Okay. Mm hmm.


BIJENDRA PATEL [00:09:59] And then one of the reason why it takes so long is it still classroom based education, lecture based education.


BARRY SHRIER [00:10:09] Right. Old school.


BIJENDRA PATEL [00:10:09] Old school. Not engaging, not immersing. I’m sure we all know what we do. If you’re sitting in a lecture.


BARRY SHRIER [00:10:18] Yeah. I used to sleep when I was at uni.


BIJENDRA PATEL [00:10:20] We are sleeping or now we are sort of on the phone.


BARRY SHRIER [00:10:24] *laughs* yeah.


BIJENDRA PATEL [00:10:24] So we thought why don’t we use the mobile phone.


BARRY SHRIER [00:10:27] Right?


BIJENDRA PATEL [00:10:28] Educate people and immerse people.


BARRY SHRIER [00:10:30] Yes, and uhm… mmm.


BIJENDRA PATEL [00:10:30] If you look at the learning pyramid, your knowledge retention of lectures and reading is about 10 to 15%.


BARRY SHRIER [00:10:38] Right.


BIJENDRA PATEL [00:10:39] While if you get immersed in education, your knowledge retention is going to be about 50, 60%


BARRY SHRIER [00:10:44] That’s a no brainer. It’s a huge difference.


BIJENDRA PATEL [00:10:46] No brainer.


BARRY SHRIER [00:10:47] So if the average student, if they’re using whatever virtual reality goggles, they’re going to learn 3 or 4x more in terms of retention than if they’re reading or sitting in a lecture room. That’s profound. Mm hmm.


BIJENDRA PATEL [00:10:59] And not only doctors, in the whole equation translates into foster education within healthcare.


BARRY SHRIER [00:11:05] Yes.


BIJENDRA PATEL [00:11:06] So whether it’s doctors, nurses, allied professionals who can really speed up the disrupt the old fashioned lecture based education.


BARRY SHRIER [00:11:14] Yes, and I suppose what’s the word for it? Upgraded.


BIJENDRA PATEL [00:11:17] Upgrade.


BARRY SHRIER [00:11:17] Like with a Tesla car. You can just upgraded over the air instantaneously, whereas with an old automobile, you can’t do that. So maybe with educational programmes they can be instantly upgraded.


BIJENDRA PATEL [00:11:28] Agreed that.


BARRY SHRIER [00:11:28] Yes. Fascinating. You know, it’s a to me, it’s a really exciting future, albeit plenty of challenges. And in terms of some of the technologies that you guys have developed, I mean, are you would you call yourself what is intellectual property business? Are you are you a hardware maker or are you a service provider?


KEITH ERREY [00:11:47] That’s a really interesting question, because one of the challenges we face. We we do all of that.


BARRY SHRIER [00:11:53] Okay.


KEITH ERREY [00:11:53] And what we’ve found is that we make hardware, we design to make hardware. So we have smart patches, like stick on smart patches.


BARRY SHRIER [00:12:01] Right.


KEITH ERREY [00:12:02] But in order to make that work, we have to design that as the system level.


BARRY SHRIER [00:12:07] Right.


KEITH ERREY [00:12:07] And the system, the system itself becomes a new kind of medical device.


BARRY SHRIER [00:12:12] Right.


KEITH ERREY [00:12:12] So the medical device now and the regulated product includes things on the body, a bedside monitor or a monitor, you know, which can be in a patient’s home, by the way.


BARRY SHRIER [00:12:22] Yes.


KEITH ERREY [00:12:22] But a monitor unit locally. Which is then connected to the cloud server.


BARRY SHRIER [00:12:27] Yes.


KEITH ERREY [00:12:28] And all of that is something then that is the as I say, it is a regulated medical product. That means that we have to take into account the fact that we’ve got wireless connections. Because wireless connections are inherently unreliable.


BARRY SHRIER [00:12:43] Sure.


KEITH ERREY [00:12:44] Right? So we have to take that into account. We have to decide whether we go for data immediacy or data optimisation or continuity, if you like. So we make a decision on that and that then gives us something that means that we control the quality of the data.


BARRY SHRIER [00:13:01] Right.


KEITH ERREY [00:13:01] In which we can then hand over to the clinicians and the nurses.


[00:13:05] Right.


KEITH ERREY [00:13:06] Because we have to make sure it’s damn good. And that’s really what we’re focussed on.


BARRY SHRIER [00:13:11] Yes, exactly. That’s a really helpful clarification. Whereas, if you didn’t have this, what we call it, vertically integrated scheme.


KEITH ERREY [00:13:18] Yeah.


BARRY SHRIER [00:13:18] If you were only a player in one part of that system.


KEITH ERREY [00:13:22] Yes.


BARRY SHRIER [00:13:22] The quality control would be a challenge for you or the delivery reliability. Like if you were only making the patch and not doing the “wiler” software or not doing the box next to the…


KEITH ERREY [00:13:33] It’s delivery and reliability. What we’ve found over the years, and I’ve been doing this for about 16, 17 years in wireless patient “marchering”.


BARRY SHRIER [00:13:42] Wow. So you’re getting used to it.


KEITH ERREY [00:13:43] Yeah, yeah


BARRY SHRIER [00:13:43] *laughs*


KEITH ERREY [00:13:43] So I saw it a long time ago. The time the rest of the world a while to catch on. But the the idea of plug and play isn’t really tenable at the moment. There has been attempts at doing things like defining interfaces and so on.


BARRY SHRIER [00:14:00] Okay.


KEITH ERREY [00:14:00] But there’s some real key technical subtleties that make that difficult to play out. The other point, though, is that the other real question, who is responsible for the data when it’s given to the professional to make a clinical decision?


BARRY SHRIER [00:14:13] Okay.


KEITH ERREY [00:14:13] Right? And if you just make one part of that, whereabouts how you sort of then saying, you know, you’re declining or just giving up, abdicating your authority or your responsibility.


BARRY SHRIER [00:14:26] Yes.


KEITH ERREY [00:14:26] For the data.


BARRY SHRIER [00:14:27] And that’s complicated and perhaps could hold you back in terms of the progress?


KEITH ERREY [00:14:30] Well, it’s complicated in the sense that somebody needs to take responsibility for it. Regulators are now focussing more and more on that. If you have a data collection or data delivery system, you show us that you’re going to deliver good data.


BARRY SHRIER [00:14:44] Okay, and therefore, if you own the whole system.


KEITH ERREY [00:14:46] Yeah, and then we didn’t really set out to do that.


BARRY SHRIER [00:14:49] Okay. Fascinating.


KEITH ERREY [00:14:50] Yeah. But when we start to put it all together, we realised that only a system level view and thinking was going to produce something that was going to be clinically usable and scalable.


BARRY SHRIER [00:15:02] Yes.


KEITH ERREY [00:15:03] Scalability is better.


BARRY SHRIER [00:15:04] Yes. Fascinating. Yes, I suppose so. Is the permanent discussion raging in strategic management about business concepts and approaches? Should you go vertical or horizontal? And Apple is famously a very vertically integrated business and other players are much less of that. And I remember one of the early digital pioneers, Alan Kay, who invented Windows. So if you don’t own and control the hardware, you’ll never make the software do what you want it to do, fully. And so there’s some issues there, which I think are absolutely fascinating with Medical Realities, is it more of a player in a bigger ecosystem. You’re not making goggles.


BIJENDRA PATEL [00:15:41] We’re not making more.


BARRY SHRIER [00:15:43] Or is it a content business? How do you define it?


BIJENDRA PATEL [00:15:46] It’s a content business. Recording… let me give an example how we’ve sort of reached here. Surgical simulation, training surgeons using simulator.


BARRY SHRIER [00:16:01] Right.


BIJENDRA PATEL [00:16:01] “Both streamers” extreme, simple, “cheap” simulators and laparoscopic surgery. As you know, you do a keyhole surgery. You make tiny incisions in the abdomen.


BARRY SHRIER [00:16:10] Okay.


BIJENDRA PATEL [00:16:11] Put in a camera, an instrument that you’re looking at, a standard flat screen monitor operating.


BARRY SHRIER [00:16:16] Oh, okay. We should have done a demonstration.


BIJENDRA PATEL [00:16:18] We could have done that.


BARRY SHRIER [00:16:20] Exactly *laughs*.


BIJENDRA PATEL [00:16:20] Next time. But now, if I tell you that obviously, you know, the benefits of laparoscopic surgery, it’s less pain and early mobilisation, and cost effective and everything else.


BARRY SHRIER [00:16:29] Okay.


BIJENDRA PATEL [00:16:30] But the limitation is that a surgeon is looking at a flat screen monitor, which is 2 dimensions.


BARRY SHRIER [00:16:35] Alright.


BIJENDRA PATEL [00:16:35] Here, yeah and your human anatomy is so complex and 3D.


BARRY SHRIER [00:16:41] Yeah.


BIJENDRA PATEL [00:16:41] So the first thing that you have to learn as a surgeon is to give up all the 3D knowledge.


BARRY SHRIER [00:16:48] Because you’re looking at a screen.


BIJENDRA PATEL [00:16:49] You look at the screen and you’re working with long instrument. And so about 15, 20 years ago, the surgical education as a laparoscopic surgery began to evolved. And as the training got more and more sophisticated, we realised that we do need to learn on patient. We don’t need to learn in humans.


BARRY SHRIER [00:17:05] Right.


BIJENDRA PATEL [00:17:05] Hand-eye coordination, depth perception, all that you can learn in a simulator.


BARRY SHRIER [00:17:10] Oh how extraordinary.


BIJENDRA PATEL [00:17:11] So just like flight simulator. You don’t fly a plane straight away. Now, sit in a flight simulator.


BARRY SHRIER [00:17:17] Simulator.


BIJENDRA PATEL [00:17:18] SImulator and that’s how it started. Know with the Medical Realities, we are recording the whole operating procedure.


BARRY SHRIER [00:17:24] Right.


BIJENDRA PATEL [00:17:25] And as you know, the surgical training is still an apprentice model where you see and watch a senior surgeon and learn from them.


BARRY SHRIER [00:17:32] Okay.


BIJENDRA PATEL [00:17:33] And then you sort of get your hands dirty, so to say it. With technology and haptics, we have to integrate haptic gloves.


BARRY SHRIER [00:17:42] Okay.


BIJENDRA PATEL [00:17:42] And actually virtually start doing things.


BARRY SHRIER [00:17:45] Amazing. That’s fabulous.


BIJENDRA PATEL [00:17:47] You can see how well you could be immersed in an operation even as a novice.


BARRY SHRIER [00:17:51] Yes. That’s superb. Could you help our audience? Because we have some term sometimes which aren’t necessarily things that everybody who’s watching the show will be aware of. You mentioned haptics. So if you could define that to people who haven’t heard that before.


BIJENDRA PATEL [00:18:05] So a touching and feeling. So, you know, in the simplest form is to be able to touch and to be able to feel when you’re doing operation, it’s quite critical to be able to touch and feel the organ.


BARRY SHRIER [00:18:17] Okay.


BIJENDRA PATEL [00:18:18] And when you are operating without haptics, it’s almost like sort of walking into a dimension.


BARRY SHRIER [00:18:25] Yes.


BIJENDRA PATEL [00:18:26] With a lot of limitations.


BARRY SHRIER [00:18:27] Yes.


BIJENDRA PATEL [00:18:27] With no touch and feel you’re making your whole job “heller” by making it a lot more risky.


BARRY SHRIER [00:18:32] Okay, and what do you have? What does a haptic glove?


BIJENDRA PATEL [00:18:36] In haptic glove, you’ll be able to really sense and you’ll feel the simulated body tissue that you’re trying to handle whenever you’re trying to operate. This will be a very realistic feeling, “in a virtual space”.


BARRY SHRIER [00:18:53] Fascinating. Also fascinating. I guess the latest smartphones have a slightly more advanced haptics than the original ones. First, you just had vibrate, didn’t you? But now I kind of feel sort of left right vibration and things like that, which is fascinating, isn’t it? And it’s just another layer of information or another level of communication. This has, I guess, a couple of different kinds of buzzings or “zappings”. Of course, I ignore them all, especially when it says every hour, stand up and breathe. And these other health care nudges which aren’t quite there yet. Are there any issues for you in terms of… I was just reminded of the big global players, what are they called F-A-A-G? The big largest tech companies in the world that seem to be in control of everything now. Does that important imposes itself on you guys? Are there risks, who knows what? Facebook or Amazon or Google might say? Well, we’d like to do what you’re doing. We think we’ll just push you out of the way. Or is it so specialised? What kind of issues do you find in that area?


KEITH ERREY [00:19:53] There’s always risks. There’s always risks. And I think anybody who’s working in tech needs to be aware of that. But I think what we have done is I don’t think where we are in the sort of pyramid or triangle of care.


BARRY SHRIER [00:20:07] Right.


KEITH ERREY [00:20:07] Is going to be where those guys go.


BARRY SHRIER [00:20:10] Okay.


KEITH ERREY [00:20:10] So if you look at the triangle can be drawn in various ways, but we have tertiary care, sort of top of the triangle that’s like critical care in a hospital. You have secondary care, which is like clinical care under that primary care. Everybody’s aware of primary care, your GP and so on.


BARRY SHRIER [00:20:25] Yes.


KEITH ERREY [00:20:25] And then there’s this other new, really interesting area that you explore often on this show Barry, which is consumer healthcare.


BARRY SHRIER [00:20:32] Yes.


KEITH ERREY [00:20:33] And that is very much bigger. So in terms of numbers, you have like numbers where it expanded towards the bottom of the triangle.


BARRY SHRIER [00:20:41] Okay, and those global players?


KEITH ERREY [00:20:43] And the global players there because the numbers are big.


BARRY SHRIER [00:20:45] Yes.


KEITH ERREY [00:20:46] And the other interesting thing about that is that the further you go towards the top of that triangle, the more difficult it gets, the more regulated it gets. And it’s also a smaller market.


BARRY SHRIER [00:20:57] Yes.


KEITH ERREY [00:20:58] But it’s a higher margin market and works better to an approach that if you’re a smaller company than to try to go straight into that big consumer mass market.


BARRY SHRIER [00:21:08] Yes.


KEITH ERREY [00:21:08] As a player.


BARRY SHRIER [00:21:09] Oh, that’s fascinating.


KEITH ERREY [00:21:10] Yeah. So it’s there’s it’s about thinking about how you structure your business with the technology there.


BARRY SHRIER [00:21:18] Now, that’s a helpful clarification. Thank you for that. There’s that graph, isn’t there? About the different types of medical care one would get like primary and then secondary and then whatever emergency or critical and the cost of that.


KEITH ERREY [00:21:32] That’s right.


BARRY SHRIER [00:21:32] And how naturally in society we want to move people as much as possible away from expensive, acute care to long term look-after-your-own-care.


KEITH ERREY [00:21:43] Absolutely.


BARRY SHRIER [00:21:43] And I suppose maybe there’s a little bit of analogy in medical education. Anything we can do to figure out how to reduce the costs of medical education are similar. So you want to move them from that top left expensive corner of the chart to the bottom right, inexpensive corner. And again, perhaps this is where things like immersive technologies have a big role to play. It’s not what you call the apprentice model.


BIJENDRA PATEL [00:22:07] Apprentice model.


BARRY SHRIER [00:22:07] Which I assumed is the most expensive.


BIJENDRA PATEL [00:22:07] Most expensive or scalable.


BARRY SHRIER [00:22:11] Longest.


BIJENDRA PATEL [00:22:14] Longest in terms of delivery of healthcare and education. But in combining technology and machine learning. You could provide a lot of your basic.


BARRY SHRIER [00:22:24] Yes.


BIJENDRA PATEL [00:22:24] Healthcare. I mean, what do we do today? Most of us before we see a doctor, we Google.


BARRY SHRIER [00:22:31] Exactly.


BIJENDRA PATEL [00:22:32] Exactly.


BARRY SHRIER [00:22:32] Yeah.


BIJENDRA PATEL [00:22:32] So once you have an intelligent Google.


BARRY SHRIER [00:22:36] *laughs*.


BIJENDRA PATEL [00:22:37] Your doctor.


BARRY SHRIER [00:22:38] Yes.


BIJENDRA PATEL [00:22:39] You will have everything at your fingertips.


BARRY SHRIER [00:22:41] Yes. That must be very difficult for clinicians if a patient says, “well, I know what’s wrong with me because I Googled it”. Well, the clinicians as well, “I’ve had 25 years of expert training and experience in this.


BIJENDRA PATEL [00:22:52] In fact, in my practice I first I ask them “what have you learned on Internet?” So that I can counsel them better. So I know where they’re coming from. I know what sort of ideas they have in their mind.


BARRY SHRIER [00:23:06] Okay


BIJENDRA PATEL [00:23:07] So…


BARRY SHRIER [00:23:07] Yes.


BIJENDRA PATEL [00:23:07] “There’s a good” but there’s no point in showing “a rare”.


BARRY SHIER [00:23:14] Yes.


BIJENDRA PATEL [00:23:14] It’s there. We have to face it.


BARRY SHRIER [00:23:17] Well exactly. And that’s not going away. In fact, it’s probably the opposite, isn’t it? In terms of the impact of the access to information and consumer engagement and that type of thing.


KEITH ERREY [00:23:27] All those systems be used for consumer training as well. Like us, as consumers, as just ordinary people. Can we learn more, faster about how to look after ourselves “is that what” you think?


BIJENDRA PATEL [00:23:40] Yeah. I mean, I’ll give another example. Basic life support training. I mean, you must have heard it in the news recently that they want even the London taxi drivers to be competent and trained in this support.


BARRY SHRIER [00:23:52] Yes.


BIJENDRA PATEL [00:23:53] And if you or anybody had a heart attack on the streets in the UK, your chances of survival is about 10%.


BARRY SHRIER [00:24:02] Oh, dear.


BIJENDRA PATEL [00:24:04] While in Denmark it’s 40%.


BARRY SHRIER [00:24:04] Because?


BIJENDRA PATEL [00:24:07] Because as you mentioned, you know. Education right from the primary school level.


BARRY SHRIER [00:24:12] I had no idea. That’s fascinating.


BIJENDRA PATEL [00:24:14] And even the Department of Education in the UK has recommended basic life support education and training from school, primary school to secondary school. Now, what should reality is when you step in.


BARRY SHRIER [00:24:28] Okay.


BIJENDRA PATEL [00:24:28] So there’s a void as an educational tool. It’s at immersive and engaging. We have virtual reality, basic life support training model, which takes 20 minutes to train. But if you go to attend a course, it will cover, you know, 4 to 6 hours of your training. It’s a whole session. Here you would get just like playing your Xbox or any video game.


BARRY SHRIER [00:24:54] Amazing.


BIJENDRA PATEL [00:24:54] And you get the kids into VR environment, teach them basic life support.


BARRY SHRIER [00:24:58] Yes.


BIJENDRA PATEL [00:24:59] No need to go to a medical school. No need to do anything. And you could sit suddenly improve your survival from 10% to 40%. If it wasn’t…


BARRY SHRIER [00:25:07] That’s enormous.


BIJENDRA PATEL [00:25:08] Huge.


BARRY SHRIER [00:25:08] From 10% to 40%, and could that happen with 1, 20 minute virtual reality session?


BIJENDRA PATEL [00:25:14] It’s “repetition areas of the scene”.


BARRY SHRIER [00:25:16] Yeah, and will that include what are some of the basic life support or…


BIJENDRA PATEL [00:25:20] Instead of having your compression. Yeah, compression, only resuscitation.


BARRY SHRIER [00:25:26] And that’s all?


BIJENDRA PATEL [00:25:28] That’s all. So if somebody were to collapse, you need to do is obviously make sure that the environment around you is safe to start compression. That knowledge and training you could get in 20 minutes using a VR headset.


BARRY SHRIER [00:25:40] Extraordinary, therefore accessible to everybody and a huge impact on the well-being of the nation. What a great story *laughs* so we have spoken about a bunch of extremely interesting subjects and we’re going to wrap up now. But it’s been absolutely fabulous to have you guys on the show. Thank you very much. And I’m also grateful for you to share with us the extremely interesting and important tech innovations that you guys are developing. So what we’ll do is I’ll just ask you, if you don’t mind, to give a little 1 minute summary approximately of what you’re doing. Do you have any ambitions, any requirements regarding your business that you want to share with the audience or if you just have a healthcare vision of the future? Where are we going? What do we want to? Where do we want to be 5 to 10 years from now? So, Keith, if you don’t mind, if you want to share anything with us or just a little summary of what you guys are doing would be fine.


KEITH ERREY [00:26:31] Sure. Well, my healthcare vision of the future is related to running a business like this, which is fundraising. Always fundraising.


BARRY SHRIER [00:26:41] Yes.


KEITH ERREY [00:26:42] So that’s an important part of what we’re doing really.


BARRY SHRIER [00:26:45]  Looking for investors right now?


KEITH ERREY [00:26:48] Looking for investors, talking to people in various place.


BARRY SHRIER [00:26:51] “Seed series, a series”.


KEITH ERREY [00:26:52] More like a series AB.


BARRY SHRIER [00:26:54] Okay.


KEITH ERREY [00:26:55] Because we’ve been around for quite a while. Yeah, and what I think what we’re trying to do there is to be able to bring this technology to more and more patients.


BARRY SHRIER [00:27:03] Excellent.


KEITH ERREY [00:27:04] And more of the nursing staff, particularly. Because it’s extremely efficient. It really, really makes it easier and better for the nurses. They have time to care.


BARRY SHRIER [00:27:14] Excellent.


BIJENDRA PATEL [00:27:14] They’re not doing all this other stuff.


BARRY SHRIER [00:27:16] That’s 90%, and you have incredibly strong product and proven traction.


KEITH ERREY [00:27:21] Yeah.


BARRY SHRIER [00:27:21] So from the investors perspective, it’s a superb bet.


KEITH ERREY [00:27:25] Well, we think so.


BARRY SHRIER [00:27:25] Yeah. I’ve got a 20 quid, *inaudible sound*


KEITH ERREY [00:27:28] Absolutely, *laughs*.


BARRY SHRIER [00:27:30] No, but thank you very much. Really interesting.


KEITH ERREY [00:27:32] Thanks, Barry.


BARRY SHRIER [00:27:32] We’re grateful to have you onboard and also very proud of what you guys have accomplished, a valuable contribution to healthcare.


KEITH ERREY [00:27:38] Thank you.


BARRY SHRIER [00:27:38] So thank you for that, and I’m likewise Bijendra if you want to summarise with anything or where the vision of the future, what are you guys thinking?


BIJENDRA PATEL [00:27:46] I think what Keith is doing is fantastic and won’t be long before you’ll have lots of medical device built appliances integrated into. You know, you might walk into “PC World and a biomedical pond”.


BARRY SHRIER [00:27:59] Yes, yeah.


BIJENDRA PATEL [00:28:01] That would be your initial assessment and diagnostics. In terms of my personal interest and ambition with Medical Reality and education is to democratise. To change the way we select and train medical professionals.


BARRY SHRIER [00:28:22] Yes.


BIJENDRA PATEL [00:28:22] It should not be just based on “3 A” stars.


BARRY SHRIER [00:28:25] Yes, exactly. Which arguably could be quite an elitist.


BIJENDRA PATEL [00:28:28] Yeah, it is that it should not be a privilege for few. “It should” democratise the whole process.


BARRY SHRIER [00:28:35] Yeah, exactly.


BIJENDRA PATEL [00:28:36] Disrupt using technology.


BARRY SHRIER [00:28:38] Yes and immersive technologies actually have a very central role in delivering that and allowing us to achieve that very attractive destination.


BIJENDRA PATEL [00:28:48] Yeah, yeah. I mean, through Medical Reality now we have the stage of creating a virtual universally if you could call it.


BARRY SHRIER [00:28:57] Wow.


BIJENDRA PATEL [00:28:57] And looking to attract funding so that I can have a completely disrupted pathway for medical education.


BARRY SHRIER [00:29:04] Mm hmm.


BIJENDRA PATEL [00:29:05] Similar to the new technology engineering college.


BARRY SHRIER [00:29:10] Yes.


BIJENDRA PATEL [00:29:12] Exist “in effort”.


BARRY SHRIER [00:29:14] Yeah. Exactly. What a great story and a fabulous ambition. So, thank you very much for sharing that. Again, great to see you guys and we’re grateful for you joining the episode today. So, thank you very much. Once again, my name is Barry Shier, and you’ve been watching this week’s episode of GIANT’s Healthy Innovators, Live TV. We’d like to thank our sponsors once again, Grovelands and Tech Data and we’re also very grateful to Disruptive Live, who are the world’s best television production team. Thank you to the team here at Disruptive Live. We appreciate your support. Lastly, we’d like to thank our sponsor, GIANT Health. So GIANT Health produces Europe’s largest and most valuable international event, celebrating health tech innovation. The GIANT health event brings together many thousands of people from all across Europe and all around the world who are all actively involved in innovating in healthcare to deliver better healthcare outcomes. This year, the GIANT Health event is from the 15th to the 16th of October in London. And the website for that is So, if you’re interested, please visit the website and you can learn more. Thank you very much. And we hope you enjoyed this episode. Looking forward to seeing you next week.