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Celerity Security Panel S2 E1

Celerity Security Panel S2 E1

NAYOKA OWARE [00:00:26] Hello and welcome to season two of security panel brought to you by Celerity. I am Nayoka Oware. And today I’m joined by Andrew McLean, director of Disruptive Live. And David Savage, editor and host of Tech Talks. Today, we will be discussing security in digital transformation. Andrew, David, welcome.

GUESTS [00:00:44] Thank you.

NAYOKA OWARE [00:00:46] You’re welcome. Andrew, tell us a bit about what you do.

ANDREW MCLEAN [00:00:49] Well, I do. I’m the Managing Director down here at Disruptive Live where we’re actually sitting at the moment filming. And most of my things involve technology. The majority of it is digital and trying to stream out to various different places from various different places on it.

NAYOKA OWARE [00:01:11] Thank you, David. You have a number of titles, emcee, curator, founder, editor…

DAVID SAVAGE [00:01:17] A different dive ever. You know…

NAYOKA OWARE [00:01:22] Every single day.

DAVID SAVAGE [00:01:22] Exactly.

NAYOKA OWARE [00:01:22] So tell us a bit more about what you do and what a job role entails, whatever one.

DAVID SAVAGE [00:01:26] Primarily, I run a podcast, which isn’t very exciting because everyone now runs a podcast, right. But I’ve been running a podcast for five years. So all about technology, 271 episodes old. So I suppose my job is to creatively plagiarise what everyone else tells me. I kind of know nothing, but I hopefully am. I’m a spokesperson for lots of people who’ve told me clever stuff over the years.

NAYOKA OWARE [00:01:48] I like “my hand” *laughs* so digital transformation is a buzzword that tends to be thrown around a lot at the moment. But what is digital transformation? David?

DAVID SAVAGE [00:01:58] Digital digital transformation is a buzzword. And we often get asked, what is digital transformation? You’ve got all these various different complex kind of analogies and explanations for it. But fundamentally speaking, it is, or at least it should be be people want access to services, solutions, whatever it might be. If you think about Amazon Prime, people want to be able to pick up a tablet or a phone and instantly get access to a service. And digital transformation is the process through which an organisation enables there to be less friction and allows someone to access that service as easily, as conveniently and as quickly as they possibly can. And that obviously can entail a huge amount of change within that organisation and the structure and the mindset. But digital transformation fundamentally is ensuring that on our own, on a day to day basis, people can access services in a way that actually fits into their lives.

NAYOKA OWARE [00:03:00] Thank you for that, David. And everyone has their own definition of what digital transformation is. So what is yours?

ANDREW MCLEAN [00:03:06] I haven’t got a clue. No one’s got a clue what digital transformation, because you’re right, it is a buzzword. I think a company is either digital or they are not digital. The act of moving from being a traditional company where you sit things down and everything is manual to moving into the more digital age, that really is the basics of digital transformation. But as David said, it is the acronym without actually explaining what it is being you, business as usual. That’s the end goal here. We want to have your business running. You want everything to be efficient. But you need to bring it into the 2020’s, the new the new decade.

NAYOKA OWARE [00:03:54] What exactly does digital transformation look like in the old world and do you have any examples?

ANDREW MCLEAN [00:04:01] Digital transformation in the real world? Well, it’s an interesting one, because in the real world, some companies don’t have digital transformation, and that doesn’t mean that they’re behind the times. It means they’re ahead of the times because these companies are digital. Some companies have just come along. They are born in the cloud. They’re born on the Internet and they are digital. Everything that they do is digital, that they’ve never had a traditional infrastructure. However, on the flip side, you have companies that have been going for over 100 years moving into this more digital landscape. I was speaking to a sea level individual in a well-known I won’t say who, but well-known fast food chain or restaurant chain. Maybe it’s a better way, otherwise I’ll get killed. And they were saying that their digital transformation, as it is now to the point where they’re just thinking everything is online and that includes how things are made. So you order, let’s say they were making pizzas. They order, you on your phone, you go on your phone, you order the pizza, you say, right, I want this, this, this, this. It goes to a local store. A computer then goes. write what they want. A machine then goes, doo doo doo doo doo doo doo, bakes it. Puts it in a box that another machine takes it to a drone or a car or some kind of robot and it delivers to your house and the entire time you’re tracking it on the thing. Now, for a company that maybe 50 years ago you used to sit down and order something, you know, a waiter or waitress would take your details and, you know, and then someone would make it and then take the dishes away. And so and forth, that’s a huge digital transformation that is going from completely manual to completely automated. So yeah, it’s some companies are at breakneck speed.

NAYOKA OWARE [00:06:00] That’s a great idea. But David, what about those who prefer the traditional ways of doing things, go into a restaurant, speaking to a waiter? They like human interaction.

DAVID SAVAGE [00:06:09] I mean, maybe they do like human interaction, but I think people like convenience more than they like human interaction. And to Andrew’s points about an organisation that suddenly pops up in it’s an it’s kind of ready made for the digital age. We had a company on the show, on the podcast that is I run just a couple of weeks ago called “Legally Robber”. An award winning protocol crowd justice that allows people to access legal services very, very easily. And it goes back to that word friction I used a couple of minutes ago. What is that? Well, that’s kind of you go through a traditional law firm and they tell you that you have to invoice them and maybe you have to send them a cheque. And when was the last time you saw a chequebook, for God’s sake? But most people want to be able to download an app and they want to be able to access the service really quickly and easily, using the tools or whatever device that they’ve got at home. And I think the digital transmission, a good example of digital transformation, is enabling someone to be able to access something like that. You know, crowd justice is an award winning out because it makes it a lot easier to access that service. And that then drags industries that haven’t gone through a period of disruption, to use another buzzword, but gone through that kind of process where actually everything’s been made a lot more easy and convenient, more accessible. And yeah, sure, some people do like traditional formats. I personally like physical books over an Amazon Kindle. I like going into a bookshop and browsing. I don’t think that we’ve kind of fixed how do you browse or kind of on an online platform? But fundamentally, push comes to shove. I think people like convenience services more than anything else.

NAYOKA OWARE [00:07:42] Fair enough, I will agree with you that. Why is digital transmission so important to an organisation?

DAVID SAVAGE [00:07:50] It’s important because Andrew mentioned kind of going into the 2020’s and you’ve got to be kind of fit for purpose. Now, it’s important because it’s the difference between and this is entirely stealing someone else’s analogy, which is the difference between driving while smoking in you in your wing mirror and wondering what’s coming up behind you, gonna overtake vs.. So having a rear wheel drive, a 4 wheel drive vehicle that’s looking forward and thinking about where are you taking your business. So you don’t want to be worrying about competition constantly. You want to focus on your business. You want to focus on making sure that your business and the services that you deliver are fit for purpose, are going to fix the problems, are gonna attract customers in the best way doing that is having forward looking vision that enables you to deliver that and I think that’s why digital transformation is important to businesses.

NAYOKA OWARE [00:08:37] Thank you. And what would you say about that Andrew?

ANDREW MCLEAN [00:08:40] Well, I think it’s crucial. And to pick David up on one of his points of convenience, I actually I substitute what convenience with utter laziness, including on my part. It’s… Look, I could phone up my mini cab company and say, yeah, can you pick me up at this address and take me to this address? Or I could just go and my Uber and just press it. And he shows up at my front door. I don’t even have to talk to the guy. I’m not much of a conversationalist. So it’s perfect. But look, let’s admit it. We’ve all gone on Amazon and just we’ve actually dismissed product that will not arrive on your doorstep the next day. If it does not have a say in their next day delivery. We are not waiting three days for this. And if I’m thinking this and I am a particularly lazy individual who most of my, my meals arrive on from a more paid. Is convenience and companies, I think are starting to wake up to this. You know, even if you were a cloud came along, cloud came along and we now expect to just be a provision things not. This will take 3 weeks for the server to arrive and plug this and plug this. This is about convenience and I think people expect it and they expect it quick and they expect it fast and they expect a lot of it to be self-serving and I think that more and more the way we’re going with things.

NAYOKA OWARE [00:10:15] Okay. What drives digital transformation?

DAVID SAVAGE [00:10:17] That exact thing. Utter laziness, convenience and competition. If we just look at the private sector, we won’t go all socialist on this. But of course, capitalism is eternally growing thing, and the only way it can eternally grow is if people are competing with each other. And, you know, if my company here can you just have to press the button and suddenly appears on my doorstep the next day and my company here on the exact same thing. But, you know, and all the details and it will be 3 weeks phone you up and you know it. You can’t really compare one to the other. Now, you’re right. There are kind of.. it used to be that these digital things I remember when the Internet first became a thing. It was a thing back in the day. In the 90s,this this website terribly. It spent like a good billion dollars on this thing. Selling shoes on the Internet. And everybody went this is the most ridiculous thing ever. And it flopped. I mean, they all the money went. And I think The Simpsons made a joke when they used the shares of toilet paper and everything. But that was seen as like, well, that’s a bit funky now. You know, we’re buying things online, of course, that because everybody wanted to touch things and nothing was tactile. Not anymore. In fact, I don’t play computer games, but I was on my Xbox the recently. You know, I have to buy discs anymore. You just press the button and it downloads and it’s phenomenal. And I think companies just need to get into it. I will say I talk about capitalism and companies. But then I look at the electoral system that just happened. We just had an election in the United Kingdom. We won’t go into the details of it, but it was it’s archaic. But then you ask the question, do governments need to digitise? Do they need to change? And what pitfalls? I think were in security, which I know probably talk about later. Is that going to come? Because at the moment we’re still ticking a box or sending in a postal vote. But there is a whole lot more to do as a society on digital transformation.

NAYOKA OWARE [00:12:37] Thank you for that. Andrew, do you agree with that, David?

ANDREW MCLEAN [00:12:39] Yeah, some great points in that. Absolutely. I mean, it is interesting talking about gaming and, you know, you don’t having to buy a disc. If you look at consumer trends and habits, they tend to filter through into business. Whereas I think it used to be that the business habits kind of to a certain degree, influence the way that we think at home now, how we think of home, massively and it kind of dictates, I think, the way the businesses act. So in the same way that we expect to be able to download something in seconds or get something delivered the next day, an organisation expect to be able to spin up infrastructure in seconds or they expect to be able to buy a product off the shelf, plug it in and play and have it in their network and have it as a service that they can offer. And I think what’s driving a lot of digital transformation, and I think this is a problem, is fear of missing out. They look at what their competition are doing. I go, oh, hang on a minute. They’ve got this new service. They’re playing with X technology. We should be, too. And the board will push ahead and they will say is one organisation. We have to implement this technology. And people go “okay, yes, jump to it” without actually questioning whether or not that organisation is ready for that technology, whether or not even that technologies is the right technology for that organisation to be using.

ANDREW MCLEAN [00:13:50] “We need an app! We need an app! that’s what people say”  but no one downloads it anyway

NAYOKA OWARE [00:13:55] That’s what I was going to ask you. Do you think digital transformation is for all organisations?

DAVID SAVAGE [00:14:00] Yeah. I think probably yes. I suppose it depends if you’re an independent, book, you know, independent book shopping in a small community. Possibly not. But then actually you see a lot of independent traders forming together to build their own digital currencies to protect local shopping habits. So, you know, in the face of the onslaught of the death of the High Street, what can you do when you can create a loyalty point system where you kind of go and you you scan your phone and you can use those points in all the local shops and independents kind of supporting each other? I think given how much we rely on mobile devices now and given how much we rely upon tech, most organisations have to be able to find an angle to it to kind of utilise digital in some way. I mean, my parents run their community, their community shop, which which is in a tiny village in the Northumbrian hills. I know that they’re looking at how they can use digital to kind of make sure that the way that their newspapers are delivered and invoiced and whatever else is, is kind of utilised more practically and my dad’s a veteran, and my mom’s a retired teacher. They couldn’t be less technology savvy, you tried. but they’re still, it’s still implementing technology then.

NAYOKA OWARE [00:15:14] That’s incredible. What are your thoughts on that? Do you think it’s for all organisations?

ANDREW MCLEAN [00:15:18] I mean, I wouldn’t I wouldn’t like an automated undertaker.

DAVID SAVAGE [00:15:23] It does take some great sense of humour as a “vicar so I can tell them as..”.

ANDREW MCLEAN [00:15:27] Yee, yes. I’ve heard. Well, it’s going to be a while till I need to use it. But I don’t know. I mean, I want to say yes. And I think a lot of larger companies need to get with the times. But at the same time, a lot of companies have got the times and I could be in the minority in this and I probably am, but I just find that some of the things are just unbelievably frustrating. I find self-service cheque just enraged me. I mean, I might be a curmudgeon, but I heard a story the other day that people keep that a large supermarket has sold the world record number of carrots because there is a way that you can use these self-service tills, impress the carrot button and put any item through it. So the people are putting their champagne through it, everything and just pressing carrot, carrot, carrot. So a million carrots in a day because no one is checking this because it’s a self-service tell. But he enrages me. I went to a hotel. It was self-service. There’s no one there. Right in the middle of the night, I press the button. It wasn’t working. Pick up the stupid phone and I don’t know. I think taken away from customer experience can just be a little bit. I think it helps sometimes, like call centres, contact centres. They now have these A.I. systems that will put you in touch with the right people. And if you phone the before it knows who you spoke to before. So it gives it gives a better experience. But you still talking to a human being, you’re talking to the robot at the end of it.


ANDREW MCLEAN [00:17:06] I think if it works, we like it. I think the problem is that technology is making people unnecessarily grumpy. So if you if you get on a plane, you don’t expect there to be Wi-Fi. If you get on a plane, you’re told that they have an onboard Wi-Fi service, something fantastic, suddenly happy. Brilliant technology, and with that I can watch the latest episode of Love Island and whatever else you can. Then get on the plane and discover that the Wi-Fi service that you’ve been told is complimentary and onboard, it doesn’t work. All of a sudden, you go from a situation where you didn’t even expect there to be Wi-Fi. So now you’re just angry that the free Wi-Fi that you didn’t even know existed 30 seconds ago doesn’t work. I think there’s an element that people people have changing expectations and it’s not always for the better.

NAYOKA OWARE [00:17:50] Is this one of the challenges you think it presents for businesses? You’re talking about keeping grumpy?

DAVID SAVAGE [00:17:56] I know there’s a huge amount of challenges that it presents for businesses. I mean, yes, people being uncharacteristically grumpy and difficult to please isn’t as warm. But equally, I mean, we were talking. I was talking earlier about the fact that an organisation has to go through a huge amount of change to deliver a digital service properly. It’s all very well saying that you can download, sorry, that you can buy I products off the shelf and plug it into an organisation. But if your data isn’t structured, you have a problem and it can take an organisation 2 years to build an enterprise data machine that actually allows you to deliver value from an A.I. product. That means that whatever data you’re putting into an algorithm actually makes any sense, gives you the answers that you need as a business. And equally, if a board is asking the wrong questions at the very top and not focussing on the outcomes, then you have problems. So, yes, it creates it creates problems because there’s a lot of concern that you need to be keeping up with competition. And that means that people are taking shortcuts and they’re not preparing that organisation. Imagine that Andrew might pull up some of the points around that. But certainly data is a big concern. And making sure the organisation is structured in the right way as it is one particular area of problems that you’re opening a kind of whole Pandora’s box with the problems that you’re opening when you’re looking at this tech.

NAYOKA OWARE [00:19:13] Thank you. Would you like to elaborate on anything David has said?

ANDREW MCLEAN [00:19:17] I mean, I go back to almost the first thing I said. We’ve got these born on the cloud, born on the Internet companies. And then we’ve got everyone else. And everybody else is the depending on how old they are and how aged they are, their systems are. They have a challenge. So they’re saying we need to digitally transform. Which is great. But everything is siloed and everything is they’ve got all these departments and all these things and they’re trying to bring it all together. They’ve got all these legacy tools that don’t integrate and they’ve got all these staff that are doing various different thing, the payroll and the account system. And the I.T. people are all they all hate each other. But that was just normal. But they now have to integrate together with this new system they’re trying to put in. And it’s a challenge. It’s not easy. And that’s just the cultural part. You then think about all about the technology. What about these old servers that don’t work anymore, these databases that have been patched for 30 years because they haven’t the company that supported it went bust. And, you know, it’s nice and easy to say, well, let’s just put everything on no sequel. Let’s just go to this open source angle and let’s just do that. But it is a challenge. It’s not an easy and the bigger the company, the bigger there’s challenges.

DAVID SAVAGE [00:20:41] So just to jump on a point there as well. We often think of organisations as these holes. And I think what Andrew’s articulated really well there is that they’re not there’s often a lot of political division within an organisation. So if you bring in a chief data officer and say, right, this person is going to build an enterprise scale digital machine that will data machine that works for us, marketing might be unhappy, the finite resources that they were relying on suddenly being switched into this person, so if you don’t have strong sponsorship, a board level, someone you can who can actually talk to the younger. You know what? This is going to be painful. It’s going to be costs. You might not see any return on investment for 2 years, for 2 and half years. Then you’re very susceptible to other people who sit around that board table. It’s not working. We shouldn’t be investing in this. And then it all falls apart and fails.

ANDREW MCLEAN [00:21:26] I mean, just speaking from our own selfish point of view. When Disruptive Live, we been back in the day when I first came on the scene, I mean, it was it was old school stuff. I mean, most people would call it very modern, but I would call it old school because we had cool servers and we had cameras and were according to film and film, you know, digital discs, whatever cameras use. And, you know, and I only had to take the files and sync the sound with it and over take weeks and weeks and weeks to make a video. And now everything is just done or it’s Internet based. Almost everything we now do is Internet based. In fact, everything we do is now Internet based. Even the, way we mix things. We don’t save things to tape anymore. We mix everything live. We put it straight onto the cloud we, we transcode to own the cloud, we even edit some of it in the cloud. And I mean, it’s a huge change, but we are just a little company so that was easy. It was just “alright, this stuff work but let’s just get rid of it all and start again”. But if I had some multi-billion dollar company and you might struggle a bit with that one. But do they need to do it? Yeah, they do. So yeah, they have they have challenges.

NAYOKA OWARE [00:22:41] Okay, let’s talk about cyber security. Everyone is thinking about it, but are they thinking about it when it comes to digital transformation, David?

DAVID SAVAGE [00:22:51] Possibly not as much as they should, because a lot of these organisations haven’t had to think about this previously. So let’s try and pick up on Andrew’s point before about gaming. I’ve got a PS2 sitting at home, PS2 does not talk to the Internet and I buy disks and I put it into that and it just talks to my tv and now everyone can play a game. Whereas your Xbox 360, whatever on now and touched on your PS4, for they are connected to the Internet and you download games. Now, from an organisational point of view, you may be had a thousand devices that were connected to your network. You’ve now got 10,000 or a million devices connected to the Internet and you’ve got many more attack vectors and many more endpoints that are susceptible to being attacks. So connected devices in the Internet of things is making the problem much, much bigger than it previously was for these organisations. And you have to be sure that the devices that you’re adding to your network and this is particularly prevalent within the manufacturing industry, that you know what those devices are, you know, device identity and device lifecycle management becomes increasingly important. And that’s not necessarily something that these organisations have had to think about before. It does create huge problems.

NAYOKA OWARE [00:24:01] What are your thoughts on that?

ANDREW MCLEAN [00:24:03] I mean, the security is always where it falls over. This is where everything falls over. I’ve got a friend who still runs Windows 98th year because he’s a coder and he just said, “look, I still getting hacked.” I get that. Okay? I do quite happily when Windows 98. But, you know, Windows 7 is about to come to end of life. And that’s just waiting to happen another ransomware type scenario. I can see it coming. But companies are getting more and more digital and more and more things online. There are more and more compliance issues that come with it. This is GDPR. It’s not just that you have to look after client data, which is very important, but you have to you know, you don’t want to get it hacked. You don’t want to lose it. But it’s also the fine that comes with it. The fines are astronomical and the PR is even worse. And, you know, I don’t know, people would say people say, well, we’re going to make this apps to the board said “we don’t need to do this app and it’s gonna be great. We’re going to all the patients data that’s going to fly everywhere. And it’s going to be amazing… Oh, we’ve been hacked.” And that isn’t good. So the company needs to take their security very seriously, especially they they’re integrating things. They need to have the top people looking at it. They need to be monitoring it. They need to be doing audits and cheques and externals or they need to outsource it. They need to have people that will just look after the security aspect, because that in itself is the biggest way. And you can recover from anything apart from, I think, a massive security breach.

DAVID SAVAGE [00:26:00] I think there’s also that mentality shift issue as well. If you go back 5 years, most people’s attitudes was this was what happens if we get hacked. Whereas now it’s what happens when we have a breach. If we have a breach and if you are in charge of a SOC, a security operation centre and you spot a vulnerability in your network, how much confidence do you have that you can go to the board and flag it and it be dealt with in a mature way or by way by someone who actually understands and isn’t likely to have a reactive knee-jerk reaction to it?

ANDREW MCLEAN [00:26:36] Do you turn off the server and pretend it didn’t happen? You’re going to get fired or tool off or something? I get that. Yeah, you’re right. And it needs to be a grown up conversation and it needs to be done properly.

NAYOKA OWARE [00:26:47] You mentioned massive security breach when you say that that’s one of the biggest challenges digital transformation can create.

ANDREW MCLEAN [00:26:55] I mean, this is not just a digital transformation problem that every company now uses computer. So security should be for full for it on their mind. But, yeah, you were saying about connecting things. I said some of the A.I. or even silly little things like running lots of different social media accounts. That can be I mean, we’ve all seen it like some celebrities. Twitter account gets hacked and, you know, they don’t know about it and it’s broadcast and all this stuff, “oh, no, no, stop”.It should be it should be a very important thing. I think brands, it’s not always their fault. You know, no one no one plans to be hacked. No one plans to have security breaches. But they they do happen. They will happen. And you know, you just you just have to prepare for it. I think it’s so important.

NAYOKA OWARE [00:27:51] What effect our digital transformation strategy is having on security teams within organisations?

ANDREW MCLEAN [00:27:57] Wow. I mean, the board are sitting down saying this “we want this now! Give it to us” and everyone and “no don’t do that, we will do that”. And it has to be a compromise. I don’t think so. But that has to be a compromise here. And yet security teams are under more and more pressure, but it needs to be a grown up conversation. So, again, I go back to the thing, saucer or beef up your security team. Yeah. It’s not just security challenges that are affecting the security team. It is expectation. People are expecting things. And just because it’s the best way to deliver a service doesn’t mean it’s the more secure we deliver a service.

DAVID SAVAGE [00:28:38] Andrew mentions outsourcing. A lot of these organisations that I think I mentioned earlier aren’t necessarily security experts. We haven’t got security expertise in-house actually having to buy in maybe services, maybe consulting services from from external organisations or maybe tools. A.I. Is often thought about as being this thing that will weaponize security and make it harder for organisations to repel an attack. But equally, A.I. can sit and give you a home advantage. It understands what your network should look like far better than actually anyone externally should do so. There’s a slight change on that network of a device that should be in Boston simply pops up and it shows its being in Russia. Then A.I. is gonna be able to spot that. And equally, if you’ve got a whole load of devices that are connected to the Internet like an Amazon ring doorbell and all of a sudden starts leaking personal data and someone opportunistic can come along and start stealing that net, that that personal information by jumping on someone’s Wi-Fi network. Well, actually, that the tools that enable you to deal with much more granular issues. And I think those granular issues are more prevalent than they used to be. But fundamentally, people have to work with technology. I think a couple of years ago, there was a figure there was 600000 jobs in the US in security that were left unfulfilled. So A.I. and automation actually all the way of plugging the skills shortage gap that you find in cybersecurity the moment.

NAYOKA OWARE [00:30:02] Okay.

ANDREW MCLEAN [00:30:03] I mean, there’s tools that the IBM Cube made are things like that one thing. Yeah. There’s humans, human solutions, A.I. solutions, technical solutions, tool solutions. But you know, what I’m trying to say is this should not all be a negative. You know, it’s not as bad as it sounds. You can do something about it. And you, you know, hope is out there.

NAYOKA OWARE [00:30:28] But thank you both. Lastly, what advice can you give to those who know that they should begin their digital transmission journey but just don’t know how to start out?

ANDREW MCLEAN [00:30:39] They shouldn’t be beginning. They should have done, this should have been. This is not 1997 anymore, Okay? It’s not. Should we have a website? You need to do it. I actually know someone who is running a fairly successful digital company, that doesn’t have a website, and it’s I think it’s harmed them. I do think. Do for the right reasons, you’re right. Do it for the right reasons. Do your digital strategy for the right reasons. It might be very nice that you can connect 50000 phones and they all say hello at the same time. Whatever it is. But actually, if you’re not doing it for the right reasons, don’t do it. But embrace digital, your legacy stuff. The longer it goes, the harder it is to support. You’ve got ancient systems. Financial place, they still have these ancient systems. And unfortunately, the people maintaining them are slowly retiring. And because these things haven’t be upgraded, no one has the skills coming in. So these are getting harder and harder and harder to maintain. So I think a digital strategy. I think a change. And if you can do the bulldozer effect where you just got start again, great. If not, then just do it wisely. Do it wisely.

DAVID SAVAGE [00:31:59] Well, look, I’ll always be an advocate for technology. I think technology is wonderful and it’s transformative and it offers services and in a way that we haven’t been able to offer before. But you have to start with the problem that your business is facing and work out whether or not the technology that you’re looking to invest in actually delivers you the outcome that you’re looking for. Otherwise, we’re just going to add to the hype cycle. You know, if you go and plug something into the network just because you think it’s gonna be the magic bullet that fixes your company’s problems or organisation, it probably won’t. And therefore, we’ll just have another piece of failed technology that people moan about. And interestingly, if you look at states at a state level, you know, everyone’s talking about cloud, about spinning larger and larger public infrastructure. But even at state level, countries are beginning to go, “is that the right thing in the face of all of these attacks?” And at that level, do we need to ring-fence and scale back a little bit and spin up infrastructure that works just for our country and that organisations can use in countries? So Russia obviously making moves in that direction, but also India and some European states. So, yes, technology is great, but there is a caviar and you have to work out whether or not it’s right for the appropriate situation. Is it right for you as an organisation? Is it right for your country? Whatever. But you’ve got to look at the problem and start with a problem first.

NAYOKA OWARE [00:33:16] Thank you both for joining me today. Unfortunately, that’s all we have time for. Thank you for watching. Join us next time for another episode of Security Panel.