Tim Bond Technology for Marketing
JONATHAN MACDONALD [00:00:13] Hi there and welcome back to day two of Technology for Marketing. This is Disruptive Live. My name is Jonathan MacDonald.
NAYOKA OWARE [00:00:20] And I’m Nayoka Oware.
JONATHAN MACDONALD [00:00:21] And we now have a wonderful guest, Mr. Tim Bond, who is head of insight for the DMA. Now the DMA, used to be called the Direct Marketing Association. It’s now the Data and Marketing Association. But still, Tim, you probably have an interesting role in this day and age as head of insight, because that’s quite of wide remit. What is it that you do and what is the DMA are standing for nowadays?
TIM BOND [00:00:43] So me, within my role as head of insight, I oversee all the market research that we do. That involves both consumer research customers are really the central principle of our code of practise and really putting them first. So it’s important to know what they have to say about the key issues. But then we also have surveys of marketers in the industry to really track where are industry are in terms of the key things. But the Data and Marketing Association, as we are now, comprises a whole host of our sort of member benefits. So things like events and guidance and the insights that I oversee. But we also have a training arm and the IDM and the institute of data and marketing. And also a team called DMA talent, who are really looking at bringing the next genration through that we need so they have the talent and skills not just from university, but increasingly working with government and schools. To make sure that we’re embedding and really making our industry aware about that as well.
NAYOKA OWARE [00:01:36] Wonderful. So Tim, what is the combination between data and trust, and how do they interlink?
TIM BOND [00:01:42] I think they’re inextricably linked. As I said in my talk earlier, it’s data, trust and personalization are the three keys. You can’t have one without the other, without trust consumers won’t share that data and without that you won’t personalise. And actually, we found in our research that personalization actually increases trust as well. And because you have those virtuous cycles the key really is putting the customer heart and soul of what you’re doing and explaining to them why you want their data in the first place. Because if you can explain them, explain it to them in an open and transparent way, they’re much more likely to accept it and be happy with the results as well.
JONATHAN MACDONALD [00:02:18] Do you think that’s something that GDPR has enabled more so? Because I’d imagine from a tech and marketing perspective, that type of regulation or legislation coming in to some would have been a problem. Is that is it is a good thing or a bad thing?
TIM BOND [00:02:31] Definitely. That’s actually something we’ve been tracking since the final text was actually finalized back in 2016. So we’ve have been asking the industry about it. They obviously had some nervous moments, particularly in the run up to May last year. And really what we’ve seen in the long term trend is that they’ve they’ve seen the benefits. So they’re seeing customers are more trust trusting in the marketing they’re putting out there. They’re more open to sharing data. And actually they’re seeing some of their performance metrics post GDPR really took up as well as particularly in email. We’ve seen things like open rates and click rates increase. Yes, some database sizes might have gone down, but ultimately it’s probably slightly less data, but it’s better data. I think that’s something that the industry is understanding. Yes, it was a consumer piece of privacy legislation, but actually that’s a heck of a lot the industry can benefit from it as well.
NAYOKA OWARE [00:03:20] Okay. what is the main impact that technology is having on marketing?
TIM BOND [00:03:24] I think tech technology is a huge thing. I mean, it’s changing. You just look at the topic of data. It’s fundamentally changed how much we’re able to collect store and how we use it. The speed at which we’re able to use it. I think that has both benefits and it has risks. I think by by being transparent and open in what we’re doing with with data and how we’re using technology, I think consumers will come on that journey with us and with friends. I think by potentially using that technology to try and hide things or do things and not necessarily think in an ethical way or kind of absolve responsibility by it by giving that decision to a machine, I think that’s where technology could be dangerous. The idea of really opening up some of these kind of black boxes to understand exactly what’s going on underneath as well, particularly when you’re talking about AI and machine learning.
JONATHAN MACDONALD [00:04:13] In that AI space, in the black box space, do you feel that theres I mean, I reckon that we’re minute one of hour one of day one of week one of that whole piece. Do you think that there’s still a lack of understanding of what is possible using machine learning? I mean, I’m going easy on the word artificial intelligence, so I’m not even certain that anyone really has gotten to grips around what that would really mean and algorithms aren’t AI so I just think, you know,.
TIM BOND [00:04:42] We you look at IBM and they don’t, they don’t actually talk about artificial intelligence. They talk about augmented intelligence. I think to a point I heard you making earlier around actually that you can’t take the human out of that process. I think it’s incredibly important that we as people are still there and still understand because everyone talks about AI or machine learning, as is this kind of saviour that is going to do all of these things for us. But it’s not that they’re without bias. All of these processes and technology are only as good as the data that we put into it in the first place. So there are a myriad of examples of where they’ve used it for maybe hiring processes. And they’ve hired exactly the same middle class white guy that they were hiring before. And that’s because all the data they gave them was to analyze CV’s to look for the same things that they’ve hired. So it’s only as good as the data you put into it. And it’s incredibly difficult to get truly unbiased data. So then if you leave it all up to the machines, you don’t have that human kind of element to it. That’s you just don’t know what’s happening. Which then when you get onto things like legislation and the ICO, how do you then explain to the ICO if they come, they come knock on your door. How do you explain what’s happening with that machine if you genuinely don’t know.
JONATHAN MACDONALD [00:05:49] Just have to point to the black box and go It just came out of the box.
TIM BOND [00:05:51] Exactly. And, you know, you know, the guys who maybe provide the black box, or the essence for the black box and whatever you trained it into, they’re not going to take any kind of responsibility for those kinds of things either.
JONATHAN MACDONALD [00:06:01] You got another other question, because I have.
NAYOKA OWARE [00:06:02] Yeah go for it
JONATHAN MACDONALD [00:06:04] I have been tracking you guys for years and years and years and years and years, and I have a I have a suspicion about where the next generation of the DMA will go to. I’m interested in the education part. I’m interested in the links to the government links to the schools. Is there any do you think you guys will ever actually start creating technology?
TIM BOND [00:06:25] Wow. Well, technically, behind the scenes, we do have our own technology. So a lot of the CRM systems and things like that we use internally are actually purpose built by us with with technology partners. So we do have some of that in-house.
JONATHAN MACDONALD [00:06:38] Could you ever licence that out?
TIM BOND [00:06:40] In fact for the system that we use for our DMA awards every year and we do actually licence out to other other DMA’s and industry associations, it’s used down in Australia for their awards every year. And so we do do bits of that. I think on a large scale, probably less likely. I think we are in the process of really looking at that education piece and how we can maximize it. And so there is going to be some some technology within that. But I think the idea that we build it from the ground up when there are I mean, just just look around here over the last couple of days. There are a myriad of brilliant vendors who are creating a kind of white labelable products that we can potentially then incorporate.
JONATHAN MACDONALD [00:07:17] True partner, partner rather than bespoke.
TIM BOND [00:07:19] Exactly exactly.
NAYOKA OWARE [00:07:19] Are you working on any new projects at present
JONATHAN MACDONALD [00:07:23] Oh yeah new projects.
TIM BOND [00:07:24] So me me personally within my team. I don’t know too much about the education and technology case, unfortunately. I’m a market researcher rather than a tech guy. But we actually have a piece launching next week around the data privacy. So that track where I mentioned we’ve looking pre GDPR through now, it’s called data privacy and industry perspective. It launches on the 3rd of October. And yeah, there’s some really interesting insights in there actually around training. Potential concerns around the lack of ongoing training around data privacy, which I think everyone has to remember, that May 2018, which was the start line not the finish line.
JONATHAN MACDONALD [00:07:58] That’s right.
TIM BOND [00:07:59] And it’s going to be an ongoing process.
JONATHAN MACDONALD [00:08:00] Awesome well, thanks for joining. And I think it’s been a great experience for me anyway to understand what you’re doing, because I’ve been tracking you for all of my career bascially so that’s been great. Do if you’re watching, do look at the hashtag Technology for Marketing hashtag Disruptive Live. And I’d like to say thank you from me, Jonathan.
NAYOKA OWARE [00:08:21] And thank you from me Nayoka.
JONATHAN MACDONALD [00:08:22] And we’ll see you next time. Cheers, guys. And thanks Tim.