Giant Healthy Innovator Show S1 E8
00:00:01] Hello and welcome to this week’s episode of Giant Healthy Innovators Live TV. I’m your host and my name is Barry Shrier. Thank you very much for joining us. As you know, every week we do a programme about innovation in health care and technology. We’re joined today by a group of incredibly talented and passionate people who are all very successful and involved in innovation in health care.
[00:00:25] By the way, I’d like to announce that our host today, our sponsor is Giant Health Giant, is an acronym for Global Innovation and New Technology and Giant Run, an annual event which collects thousands of people who are all actively involved in health care, innovation and technology. The vision of giant is to improve the health and the well-being of people around the world by promoting and facilitating innovation in health care and supporting health tech entrepreneurs. So once again, welcome to today’s episode of Healthy Innovators TV, and we’re glad to have you with us. The format is as follows. What I’m going to do is ask everybody to introduce themselves and then we’re going to talk about some of the leading issues in health care today and how with technology innovation, we’re able to address these issues and work towards our common goal, which is to make the world a better place and to reduce pain and suffering. So that’s the plan. And like I said, thank you very much for joining us. So, Andy, good to see you. Thank you very much for coming along. If you don’t mind if you can briefly introduce yourself and tell us what you’re doing in health care, please.
[00:01:30] OK, so I’m undebatable. I’m absolutely passionate about use of data, but using data for good reasons. And obviously that’s a big issue at the moment with issues to do with data privacy. Yes. Algorithms, all that sort of stuff. So I’m spending most of my time on now is helping organisations work to link it, make use of it and make it available in the right sort of way so that it influences the decisions you make and really makes a difference to the impact of the outcomes that patients have.
[00:02:02] Excellent. You know, very important. And looking forward to hearing more about that. Thank you. You mentioned the good bit of data. So we also need to hear about what the bad bits of data are. So everyone is aware of that. Thank you very much. And hello, how are you?
[00:02:15] I’m very. See you. Thanks for coming and thank you for having me. Yeah. We’re not five people tonight. We’re five and a half, aren’t we. We are indeed. Congratulations. Thank you. My greatest joy, as they say. Just joking about how baby you around the time of giants. Oh, OK. So we’re cancelling the pregnancy or postponing just push it back to Christmas. That’s fine.
[00:02:39] Tell us about what you’ve been doing and what your interest in health care are, please.
[00:02:42] So my name is Anthony Pereira. I am a former DR and now turn marketing consultant and brand specialist. So I work with companies on their marketing strategy and also the writer of the Dissolution Medek Block, which is documentation of what my life was like when I was leaving medicine and transitioning into a new career.
[00:03:04] Oh, interesting. What’s it called again?
[00:03:05] The destination? Medek. OK, yes. And so through that, I’ve made lots of contacts with doctors who are struggling with that work in the NHS and what it’s like for them. So person I’m really interested in these sort of social media is using that to support doctors going forward.
[00:03:24] Nice. We hope to hear more about that. Yeah. Thank you very much and good to see you know. Stephanie, how are you.
[00:03:29] Hi, very. Thanks for having me. It’s a pleasure. Glad you’re here. Thank you for joining us. Thank you. So my name is Stephanie.
[00:03:35] I’m I’m a doctor and founded a company and run it called DR Phi, which is essentially a platform connecting patients and doctors. So we have really passionate about transparency in health care. I mean, you could call it something like the TripAdvisor of health care. We’re working with thousands of doctors and hospitals and displaying them, displaying patient experience data. And another thing that we’re collecting is information where doctors recommend other doctors for certain procedures or skills they’re very good at in order to give patients information to help them take the right decision for them. Right. Excellent. And the business is called DR DR High. Yeah, excellent. How long has that been going for? Three years. And whereabouts is it? Is it geographical or is it very international? So it’s a national in the United Kingdom. Yeah. Axians, yeah. Looking forward to hearing more about that. Yes. Thank you. Thank you very much. How are you.
[00:04:33] Hello everyone and thanks for having me. My name’s Emma Darcy Sutcliffe and I have a bit of a shaggy dog story really because when I was 15 my mum had a stroke. Oh my gosh, she was only 34 and at the time the DR, I was a pretty small fifteen year old at the time. The doctor said, we’re not going to explain what’s happening to your mum because you be able to understand that absolutely incensed me. Oh, my gosh. I’ve spent. The last 22 years as a medical writer and I’m passionate about including the patient voice in clinical trials, in research and development, and in those everyday things that count to a patient. So I run a patient engagement and innovation division at a traditional medical comms company called NexGen Health Care. And we are passionate about ensuring the patient voice is involved at all stages of that that patient journey in R&D.
[00:05:33] And the key question that we always ask of the pharma companies and the biotechs that we work with is this. Patients live with their conditions every day.
[00:05:43] Yes. Do you? Yeah. Difficult question, isn’t it? And perhaps it’s impossible, obviously, from the clinicians perspective to live with that. But but very crucial, isn’t it? We’ve been talking before the show we about patients and the theme of patients and I guess the data implications and things like that.
[00:06:03] So I think we’re good to explore that further. I mean, you guys obviously are at the centre of helping patients with technology. If you could elaborate very, very briefly, if I am a patient, why would I use the DR buy what does it do?
[00:06:16] So I mean, there are different reasons why you would go on DR five, but let’s say you’ve been given a recommendation about a doctor or you’re seeing someone in the NHS, for example, and you want to know what this doctor is like. You go and DR Fi and you check out what this doctor is doing with the subspecialty, what they’ve done in the past. And then also you can read patient reviews and it’s very interesting. Yeah, OK.
[00:06:40] And I don’t use it to say, oh, I’ve got a headache helped help me to understand what the causes are. It’s not a no attridge diagnosis platform.
[00:06:49] You could say I have a headache. Show me which doctors deal with headaches and it matches that key word to doctors that are near you or doctors in or wherever you need to see them. And then you can look at ratings as well. They’re rated with a star rating. Very simple. Oh, well. And then they get recommendations from other doctors for, for example, treating headaches. So it gives you a lot of data to take a decision. And just one thing to add to that, really. Interestingly, the patient experience reviews, they really paint the picture of the person that you’re going to see or not see. So to give you an idea of what that person is like, very soft and empathic and explains another very thing, going back to his doctor, living that and that’s what we see now, I dare say, at 44 now.
[00:07:34] So when I was 15, you know, we’ve seen an absolute revolution, certainly through social media platforms. And it has really transformed the participatory model of medicine through to a paternalistic model of medicine, through to one that’s much more participatory is changing. So I’m loving the people I’m here with today. You know, we’ve got we’ve got platform bringing patients and doctors together. We’ve got somebody who is equipped to analyse the data and make good use of that data from patients and from health care professionals. Yes. So it’s an exciting time. And I’m glad, you know, there’s always that kind of what would you tell your 15 year old self? And I would tell my 15 year old self change is coming. Hey, we are yes, it’s fantastic.
[00:08:15] And the impact of social media and our engagement in it and the value of it is just all pervasive, isn’t it? We were talking about that earlier. If you could elaborate on that platform you were telling us about, or is it a Facebook group?
[00:08:27] Yes, it’s really interesting that there’s a lot more discussion now about doctors leaving the NHS. Right. And really struggling with medicine. And it’s a terrible situation to be in because obviously we need those empathic doctors. We need those people who sure care.
[00:08:44] But then sometimes the consequence of caring is that, you know, your mental health is affected. And so platforms like empathy on Facebook and on YouTube as well, and having access to be able to make videos that other people can then share and and talk about platforms like this are really supportive for for doctors and for other clinicians.
[00:09:06] Indeed. As well. Yes. So you can share anonymously or you can.
[00:09:11] OK, yeah. That helps us. Yeah, definitely. You can choose if you want to or not. Yeah. Something really personal. Yes.
[00:09:19] This is my personal experience. Or if you had a clinical experience that you know, you don’t want to reveal who you are as well, it’s really affected. You share that and then the ability to to read what other people say and have that that source of comfort from all around the country is really incredible that we have that.
[00:09:38] It’s excellent, isn’t it? And it’s great to hear about positive aspects of social media because, of course, we have been hearing so much over the past few years about all the damaging, negative, perhaps unexpected consequences of the advent of social media and how impact how much it’s impacting us.
[00:09:56] Yeah, but what what I find so exciting, just adding to what you said. Is that how much doctors are engaging with innovation and the movement in health care, because I think doctors have always been innovators driving research and whatever in whatever way, yes, they want and always been a really very interesting, idealistic part of society. And in the same way, they’re driving innovation now, engaging with the website. You mentioned all the groups that you mentioned or, you know, any form of research. And it’s just fascinating to see how they’re driving it.
[00:10:30] The data implications are quite strong and I don’t know if they’re concerning or not.
[00:10:35] We were talking a little bit about that. I mean, there’s good data, isn’t there? And what were you implying earlier about the risks of is there bad data or are there privacy issues? And are we making progress in addressing those? What are some big things we need to be concerning ourselves with?
[00:10:49] Well, I think it’s interesting. It’s absolutely brilliant, the innovation and how quickly things are moving at the front end. But I think one of the things that we quite often miss is the fact that we’ve got a population of over 60 million people and there are a lot of people that don’t engage or can’t engage with the platforms and things that we’re talking about.
[00:11:09] What do you mean, for example, can’t engage?
[00:11:12] Well, so Connie Kaizo say you’re older, say you speak another language, say you haven’t got good connectivity.
[00:11:21] OK, so we’re talking about people in all sorts of areas in the country and all sorts of diverse groups. Yes. Now the debate around all of these types of things and and data ANNIYAN platform stuff, what that is, is quite often focussed on actually a subgroup, an elite, the quite vocal, etc.. Right. And there are many other populations that were excluded within all of this. So I think we need to potentially rebalance the discussion around innovation and technology and focus on the sorts of things and solutions that could target, target those sorts of populations get frequently there. The people that have the poorer experience, the poorer outcomes, don’t have a voice. So these platforms that people are engaging with, that the you know, particularly the elite or whoever has vast populations out there that we’re not actually picking data up from at all. Therefore, we’re picking data up frequently from a subset.
[00:12:18] Right. And which is not a representative necessarily meeting the needs of the population.
[00:12:23] Well, so I suppose my subset to highly committed in the next year, it’s all about sort of stuff.
[00:12:31] Yeah. What about everybody else? I think we miss that other group at our peril because we don’t we’re not engaging.
[00:12:39] We haven’t got the data on the content. And we we don’t actually understand what’s going on in their lives. And that’s not just about health care.
[00:12:45] That’s about other aspects of society as well. You know, that makes a lot of sense because, of course, all those people, as you said, who are active and committed and enthusiastic about technology will be how do you get the vocal minority and what’s the famous phrase? Did Michelangelo say we should criticise by creating? So if that’s the issue, if there is a substantial perhaps portion of the population who aren’t online or don’t have easy access to this technology, what are the opportunities for us to address that? How how do we overcome that?
[00:13:20] Yeah, so it’s really interesting because I’m very passionate about this and we have and we fix up in-store iPads where people can leave reviews like very simple ones and as a button where it allows you press on it and you speak into it like speak recommissioning. Yeah. So and it’s so nice because we see a lot of older people use it and really I think they’re not scared of it. No, no. Just talking to. Yes, it’s like in the DR surgery. Yeah. I in clinics and on outpatient units. I haven’t heard that before. Yeah. What if the doctor is listening and you’re saying I really didn’t like that. I did. It’s not, it’s not completely, it’s not paid. I’m sure there might be better solutions but it’s addressing it a little bit so. And I’m joking. Of course it’s an excellent solution, but it’s nice. And but what I also like about what you said is there’s so much discussion about like how do we protect data that, you know, people being scared of data? And it was very interesting because I went to one of your conferences and it was a lady speaking about the fact that actually 70 percent of people are not scared of sharing the health data.
[00:14:23] OK, and 70 percent. Absolutely. And I would absolutely endorse that.
[00:14:27] Yeah, it’s sort of how do you say it an overblown issue? Is that a journalistic problem looking for a solution here?
[00:14:35] We’ve actually always been social about our health, whether it’s, you know, you know, speaking with our grandma over, you know, what is a boy or a girl and how are we going to hold hold something over the tummy and see see what happens at all, talking over the garden fence with our neighbours, you know, something’s happened to my husband.
[00:14:53] But what’s happened is the digital transformation has provided us with platforms to reach out further, of course. So people have always. Been social about their health. Oh, but now they’ve got the ability to be broad and social about it. The challenge that we have as medical researchers and creators of new products and services is that we struggle to, I suppose, filter that data from people. Being sociable about the health of your iPhone contains health data on a on a daily level. Sure. So we provide those data to big groups that we hope will research and give us new technologies, innovations and medical products and services. Yes, but those organisations are not equipped to manage that data. So there’s a term within certainly that the pharmaceutical industry that the data coming in from patients and, you know, the great unwashed is in fact dirty data because it doesn’t ascribe to very strict clinical trial protocols.
[00:15:53] OK, so you’ve got a juxtaposition of the patient agreeing the patients are just an issue of the nature of the data.
[00:15:59] Patients ultimately want solutions. They want to be helped every day. Yes. So they will provide those data every day. The challenge with that is they will they will get to a point when they say, but we’ve been giving you all health data and you haven’t given a solution. So come on, you know, there’s a catch up time.
[00:16:17] Yes. Yes.
[00:16:18] The challenge of the patient and their expectations and I guess I might add, this is this is part of the thing.
[00:16:24] You know, the techniques that organisations, the research organisation use are actually the techniques of the sixties and seventies and eighties. Right. And they haven’t necessarily caught up with real world ways to experiment people. Well, everything is an experiment at the moment. Right? You know, it’s interesting now, randomised controlled trials, you have a treatment population and an on treatment population. But ultimately, we were all going through these experiences in our daily lives. Some of us are doing things some of us aren’t doing. So we got the same issue. Yes. Now, ultimately, if you could get hold of that sort of stuff and use that real world distribution of data, then you don’t you don’t need to do anything else. But I think the deal, which is part of the thing that you’re talking about, is, yes, you’re getting something from me. But yeah.
[00:17:15] What’s happening with that? Something that’s happening.
[00:17:18] What do I get in return? And the and I suppose some of the concerns that people have around the data, particularly around me moving down insurance as a whole point of insurance is about risk pooling.
[00:17:31] And if you’ve got personalised data around an individual risk, you’ve got this data about the risk is very high. Well, the cost of that insurance policy side are very, very high. So it’s a personalised policy, but it’s really expensive. So you moving against the whole philosophy about what insurance is about? And I suppose where that where does this stop and can that person take control back of their own footprint, digital and data footprint? Yes, and it is one of my passions is how can I as an individual or my children or my grandmother or my mother take control back of her data if she doesn’t think it’s actually going to be beneficial for her because it’s her data, her footprint, how can how can she be empowered to do that?
[00:18:14] Yes and no. I don’t feel that I’ve got that myself.
[00:18:16] But for the sake of argument, monetise it, you know, the patient monetising it. How can I use this as a marketing perspective?
[00:18:24] We’ve seen this in other industries using how data segmentation can amount to massive financial gains for companies. And it is a fact. The more more data you have, the more that you can segment, the more you can tailor your product and you can target your audience. So the question, I suppose the fear is, will that be used beneficially in the NHS about the abuse?
[00:18:46] Absolutely. For the sake of argument, does the patient care? Is the patient not already giving away vast loads of data?
[00:18:55] Obviously, to what’s called Fagg is as the global operator is Facebook generation and the Galva generation I speak of Jamaica switch to an empathy to Biscuits is a classic, you know, British colloquialism of the gaffa generation.
[00:19:13] Google taking over academic concerning ourselves and being pleased with ourselves for concerning ourselves, with the patient data when they’re all just very, very freely giving it all away. Does everybody need to make money out of the data? Facebook is making money from regarding them personally. I don’t know. Like I said, just for the sake of argument, it’s a baby bathwater thing, isn’t it?
[00:19:35] So, you know, people I mean, I proselytise about the value of health and social media and sharing that 15 year old me who wasn’t able to get some answers from the DR would love to have gone to your site and gotten some recommendations of which DR to talk to. And so the baby bathwater thing is, you know, we we highlight health issues and health challenge. And sharing of data, and that raises awareness, it raises money if you look at the ice bucket challenge, the ice bucket challenge, amyotrophic lateral sclerosis. Who the heck would have known what that even stood for? But in the course of two weeks, a couple of years ago, President Postman, your next door neighbour, we all threw water over our heads and 200 million dollars was raised for research into ALS. Superb, isn’t it? I mean, that’s an incredible thing. However, the that society struggled because they suddenly had all this research money. And, you know, how do they know how to set up a clinical trial or what to do to research? And then what you have is is the generation who contributed that to that. The Gafoor generation going back a few years later and saying, but we raised two hundred million dollars, so have we cured it yet? So what you’ve got is so you know, people want answers. So they’re providing their experience, their data, but they’re sharing something. They’re participating in health causes. They then want the expedient of solutions and science and medicine doesn’t work like that. You’ve got cedula science into this and socialise health. And and when when there’s a disconnect, that’s when you have problems. And one of the things I’m really passionate about is that we need to address the health literacy gap.
[00:21:23] So what’s happening is, OK, well, you know, the average reading age, for example, across Europe is the age of 11. So if you look at the I AIX, which is the international adult literacy score, one being, you can just identify basic numbers and letters, five being professorial academic engagement about any topic. Right. So most people sit somewhere around three, which is high school education. OK, so if you compound that with intense medical data, if you’re a patient and you have the emotions and fear of being a patient or a carer, right. Then your ability to disentangle complicated medical information. Yes. Just plummets. So what we have is a very empowered patient population being social about their health. Right. And hey, I did the Alessa Ice Bucket Challenge. Right. And then if you then get diagnosed with amyotrophic lateral sclerosis, how on earth as a patient can you take in what that means?
[00:22:29] So in a way, the technology perhaps is actually possibly creating a new problem while solving lots of other problems.
[00:22:35] So it’s the equivalent of kind of the socialised health and the Internet. And the technology has given people a car but hasn’t given them the keys or the driving licence to drive the car properly.
[00:22:48] So the physician analogy is a flat in terms of like the patient clinician relationship. And do you think that’s having an impact on clinicians in terms of now all the patients are empowered and they come to the doctor saying, well, I Google this is what?
[00:23:04] Should we be prescribing this for me?
[00:23:05] Absolutely. No, it’s really interesting now being in the space between patient and clinician. Yes. And and having my local mothers groups and friends asking me lots of questions. And there is this wealth of information out there. But it’s very overwhelming and some of it’s contradictory and some of it seems to be for more than than others. Yeah. And it’s very frightening for you to have to make that decision. So, for example, I had a conversation this morning about Group B strep and whether you should get private testing for that and in pregnancy. Oh, I know you’ve got to two different sources saying completely opposite things as a as a non medically trained mother. That would be very frightening.
[00:23:47] Yes. And yet they take all that to the doctor. Exactly. And say, well, I’ve read about it. I’ve read about it. I still don’t know what to do, you know, advise me.
[00:23:55] Yeah, well well, I think the issue here is about trust. Yes. Yeah.
[00:24:00] Who who do you trust with what and how much do you trust yourself when you’ve got your baby and now, now is the time to call DR. Is that later. Should I take my own instinct or what should I do? Should I rely on what I read here? Yes. You know, and I think, you know, there are so many little decisions which have enormous consequences that we make. And I think we forget at our peril that that’s where the starting point is, is with us and that we are being bombarded by all this stuff. And so, you know, ultimately, quite often you bring your mom or something. You know, that’s actually what I say exactly, because you trust your mom, because that’s the nature of the relationship. So all these other things are informing us that those are the things that you you need to understand. So so in the eyes of the whole thing is very explainable. IoT, you know, you got to be able to understand that as a person in order for you to believe and trust that it’s actually going to give you a way forward.
[00:24:57] So certainly that’s good to have that sort of level of transparent.
[00:25:00] That’s the issue is absolutely profound, isn’t it? I don’t know if there’s an app called Phone Your Mum or not, but maybe there’s an opportunity in health care and it is good for that type of thing. Yeah, this has been incredibly interesting. And I love having you guys with us. And thank you for joining us and all of the excellent contributions and interesting ideas we’ve been discussing. So thank you for that. We have a few minutes left.
[00:25:22] So what I’d like to ask you guys to do is we’re just going to go around the group and talk a little bit very, very briefly about what our visions for the future are. Obviously, we’re looking at health care. We’re looking at tech innovation.
[00:25:32] We’re looking at the challenges of tech and the relationship with patients and the clinicians.
[00:25:38] So we just want to do is just summarise. So if you don’t mind, and if you have anything in particular to add, if not, it’s not an absolute requirement. But we’d love to hear about what’s the future that you’re looking forward to and what are we doing today with tech and innovation to build that better future?
[00:25:53] Well, I’m just loving the opportunity to get first that requested. So so I think I’ll just get back to my the one point I did want to make, which is. We shouldn’t forget the people that are speaking.
[00:26:08] Yes, and we. The inclusion thing, yes. And we do that at our peril and society in America and in the U.K. and in Europe in general, is doing that at its peril. And if we we need to engage, we need to work out what problems and challenges these people are facing on a day to day basis. And we need to design things that work for them. Well, that and that is where we should focus our efforts, not on things that are working for the minority and then making money out of it. I think for me, that would be my vision for the future.
[00:26:43] Is that a good start? Thank you very much for sharing. I love that.
[00:26:47] And I think for me, we always talk about putting the patient first, but I think we sometimes forget that by putting clinicians and their health at the forefront as well, that is what will help to to put patients first going forward. Yes, it’s the fundamental lesson of marketing. That culture is created from the top down. So you look after the people who are looking after the people. Yes. And I’d like to see technology being used more for that in the future.
[00:27:16] Excellent. That’s a good point. And they can’t be neglected. Of course, it sounds perfect, doesn’t it? Let’s put the patient at the centre of everything. But obviously the clinicians are extremely important and it’s got to be someone that’s part of the puzzle. Yeah. Yeah. Excellent. Thank you for sharing. How about you, Stephanie?
[00:27:30] Yeah. I mean, I have something similar to add. I think like when I became a doctor, I always thought I’m going to be one of those doctors that really, you know, because I when I meet people, I can I can sort of see past what they say and I can see a person and and I was going to be one of the doctors.
[00:27:49] I will speak to patients and really address the issues underneath the surface. And then I became a doctor and there’s absolutely no time for that. And you end the world. Yeah, not not really creating relationships and rushing through things. And I think the most exciting thing about innovation, health care, is that I think that all the boring stuff will be taken away from doctors and nurses, you know, like writing notes, whatever, all of this repetitive, silly stuff, and that doctors and nurses will be going back to what they’re amazing at, which is like the soft skills. Yes, the grey areas, and super passionate about doctors enjoying the job, especially in this country again and giving back what, you know, I think it used to be. Exactly. So that’s what innovation will do. Excellent.
[00:28:37] Yeah, I’m very visual person. I see it as a triangle. What I would like is that there’s a trust triumvirate and how great to use the word triumvirate in the setting, and that would be the relationship between physician patient and researchers and that that is enabled by the tech and the innovation. And I think that’s that’s the place I would like to get to. And tomorrow is GCSE Results Day and in the UK. And what I would really like to see is that the health literacy gap is on our school education agenda because we need to educate people to be able to have that that trust triumvirate.
[00:29:16] Absolutely. So let’s get that on. Yes. On the education.
[00:29:20] Yeah, no. Great idea. Well, thank you very much for sharing that. And so good to see you guys, obviously. So thanks again for being on the show today. We’re grateful. I’m humbled by all of your excellent contributions and your fabulous accomplishments in health care and innovation. So thank you for that. Good to see you. And looking forward to keeping in touch with you once again. My name is Maria Shriver and I’m your host for this week’s episode of Healthy Innovators TV. Thanks to our fabulous guests for your important and interesting contributions. As a reminder, Healthy Innovators TV is sponsored by giant health giant runs an annual event collecting thousands of people in Europe, bringing them together to support and promote innovation in health care. And also, I’d like to thank our partners. The team from Disruptive Live Disruptive Live are a fabulous group of people that are doing a lot of very interesting, excellent programmes, not only about health care, but about other industries. And we encourage you to follow them on social media and to watch these programmes. So once again, my name is Mary Schreier. Thank you very much for joining us and look forward to keeping in touch with you.