The Andy Show – S1Ep32
ANDREW MCLEAN [00:00:38] Good afternoon and welcome to The Andy Show. It is Wednesday. My goodness, where has the week gone? It is Wednesday, the 3rd of June 2020. The time is now, 12:30 in the afternoon. And I want to talk about, It is my absolute pleasure today to talk to my special guest. It is Justin Day. The CEO and Co-Founder at Cloud Gateway. Justin, welcome.
JUSTIN DAY [00:01:12] Hi. How you doing?
ANDREW MCLEAN [00:01:14] I’m not too bad. Not too bad. The weather’s slightly turned into a dark thud, but yeah, I’m not too bad. How are you getting on.
JUSTIN DAY [00:01:24] Yeah, not too bad. I think hay fever season’s kicked in. This is the best day in the last few. So I’m pleased to say that I’m recovering, but hopefully all pollen is moved to where it needs to for the foreseeable future.
ANDREW MCLEAN [00:01:38] Well, fingers crossed, fingers crossed. So Cloud Gateway. Do you want us a little bit about yourself as CEO and what Cloud Gateway does?
JUSTIN DAY [00:01:48] Yeah, absolutely. So, you know, being a CEO of a company is something that suddenly comes upon me. When you start a company up and you come from a technical background. So, yeah, I come from a network background, network security background. I always considered myself a telco baby, came up through the ranks in cable and wireless, something I, I cherish, even if maybe others don’t. Who knows? But something I always enjoyed. And I’ve got to meet my Co-Founder Neil Brisko through working with which was Norwich Union then Aviva. And we’ve known each other for a long, long time. Work in the same field. Best of friends, where these good things start. And you know, when we created Cloud Gateway, what we wanted to do was, you know, I know there it becomes a bit of that oft used word at the moment. But we wanted to disrupt the world of commerce. What we wanted to do was take comms the least sexy part of technology, but that the most necessary will certainly in our eyes, of course, and re-edit of the burden that the kind of unfortunately a lot of the telcos have kind of created around it. That is, you know, it it costs a huge amount of money. It’s not scalable. You have to pre-plan for what you might need in 10 years time. Things in ninety, a hundred and twenty hundred fifty days, et cetera, et cetera, et cetera. And we wanted to create something that just didn’t do those things. We wanted to leverage Cloud, which we didn’t think that anyone in the comms space was doing to build a secure connectivity platform, that we could then take all those benefits of Cloud and elasticity scalability and be able to deliver that at price. And I think as well, for us, it was about taking a very philosophical view of where we thought the entirety of market was going. And, you know, we’d heard a lot about, you know, the Internet is the answer to everything. Public Cloud is the answer to everything. SD-WAN will save the world. And it’s not that we necessarily thought that those were bad things, but we didn’t think that they were that the utopia for everything, you know, for us is all about choice. It’s all about essentially what is now colloquially known, I suppose, as hybrid. And we wanted to be able to offer something that could just take the best of all those worlds. So if our comms level is private circuits and its public circuits, great, we can connect those. If it’s private Cloud, public Cloud or on premise, whatever it might be, bring those all together. Scale as appropriate and the way we go. Very exciting time for us and and to be pioneering in that space or so we believe.
ANDREW MCLEAN [00:04:27] No. Excellent. So Justin if we had this conversation six months ago, we might be having a very different discussion around Cloud, hybrid public, you know, local infrastructure as well. And then this whole lookdown thing happened and kind of the rules just went out the window. Things have changed. People were now working from home. So let’s start with traditional infrastructure. How have you seen that this lockdown and this changed way we’re working social distancing, offices closed, things that have impacted traditional infrastructure?
JUSTIN DAY [00:05:10] Yeah. I mean, I think really, you know, no one plans for a global pandemic. Did they? You know, in our world, whenever we’ve talked about disaster recovery and business continuity, it’s always about this kind of these things that you never expect to happen, wholesale data center losses and outages. But this is the reality of what’s happened. The reality is that traditional infrastructure has proven its true weakness, particularly when users cannot be within a certain geography. And I think that is what we’ve seen the most, is even when certain remote working policies have been put in place, remote working. Technology has been put in place. It was never put in to truly scale or take into consideration. What we’ve seen most recently has been up to 100% payload. You know, there’s many, many businesses have had to send everybody home. And often remote infrastructure is scaled, if it even exists, a scale to sort of 20%. So all of a sudden that becomes saturated. So then having to make decisions around. Well, who of my 80% do I not send home? Or who do I send home but they can’t connect and do their job. How do I balance that? It’s a real problem. It’s opened people’s eyes to, you know, some people, maybe some businesses maybe took it slightly for granted. You know, let’s be realistic. It’s that thing that’s kind of the can was kicked down the road and others that just say didn’t plan for something that requires 100% of your workforce to go home. So what we have really seen is that question very quickly, particularly in the NHS, was a key focus, key focus for us, key focus for the country, of course, for every everything that they had during all of the great work that they’re doing on the frontline. But a lot of the work that people don’t see behind the scenes as well. To see how we could get people back working as quickly as possible because from a comms perspective, it’s the infrastructure that allows you to to remotely access from an end user compute perspective. It might be that all of your users have access to authorised laptops and many don’t know. A lot of us, I think, probably take for granted, especially working in smaller businesses where it’s kind of the norm that this is you know, we have these more remote devices, huge hulking organisations, particularly government, NHS health, you know, lots and lots of desktop computers, lots of terminals. These are not things that can be taken home. So that creates that that problem as well. I think what it’s got businesses doing, you know, in the first couple of weeks, 2 to 3, 4 weeks of the pandemic is it is panic, you know, not just from the health perspective that the cost that the whole country has to deal with, but from a tech perspective is how we need to sort this out and we need to sort out now. How can we do that? What can we do to alleviate this problem? But also what does this look like long term?
ANDREW MCLEAN [00:08:15] So you’ve touched on the pertinent point that I wanted to ask about. And you said the word comms. The… You’ve got your infrastructure, you’ve got your Cloud infrastructure set up. How have people been dealing with home broadband is? Let’s just cut to the chase. How they’ve been dealing with home broadband. How has that affected their remote working teams?
JUSTIN DAY [00:08:40] Yeah, it’s been it’s been mixed. I think I think, you know, that comms in this country are still very, very mixed. You know, for everyone that celebrates 80, 100, 200, 350 megs of fibre that sits in the middle of a London or big city postcode. You know, the reality is there’s people like me who live in the countryside, who are currently tethered to a 4 meg sim card because that’s better than the landline I have. So that has been mildly problematic. I think something we saw which nobody ever expected. I say nobody, we’ve been talking about this for a while, but we did expect to see it through a global pandemic. Is the Internet is not the, this bastion of strength that I think a lot of people would have you believe that it is. You know, no one entity is incentivised to keep the Internet robust and working as efficiently as it possibly can. And, you know, it came as a real surprise those first few weeks into the pandemic. There were major outages in pretty much all of the main telcos. And you don’t need them. We also had that one of the most fascinating things for me was Netflix said that they were going to only stream in standard definition because it was too much bloody flooding onto the Internet. So it was bearable but, you know, it needed a bit of a gut punch first for everybody to settle. And that’s that’s the comm’s half of it. Of course, the end-user computer part was the next big hurdle to jump.
ANDREW MCLEAN [00:10:25] Yeah, I was going to say that we’re uhm. I won’t name any names, but I know there was a large public Cloud provider, stories about like capacity issues that said, we haven’t quite expected suddenly to have another million servers jump up and that was causing issues. But I mean, how did infrastructure cope with this sudden lockdown and hundreds of people suddenly spinning up servers.
JUSTIN DAY [00:10:54] Yeah, I mean, so definitely what one of the major Cloud providers definitely had that immediate scale issue, which I think, you know, like with the Internet, it’s. I’d say that issue that Netflix, which was showing these major telcos, was sharing. I think the reality of things being laid bare for people to be able to see that actually these things aren’t invulnerable is a positive thing. But the way that this was ultimately addressed across multiple public Cloud providers was the use of VDI. This was something that we Cloud Gateway thought was probably a few years down the line just yet before this became more widely adopted. I’m not going to say the norm, more widely adopted. I think what we’ve seen is big because of, you know, it’s driven by need is the aggressive push towards this as a very realistic answer for a number of things. You know, each of the major Cloud providers has a VDI offering of sorts. And being able to build that VDI solution, leveraging Cloud capability, being able to scale on demand, being able to have a security boundary, although that still needs some thought process, particularly for health and for government and needs. And, you know, a good look at that doesn’t mean it’s wrong. It just needs to be a bit more thorough. But it overcame the problem of those people who didn’t have a work laptop that they could take home. Most people typically do have their own device so that they kind of bring your own device policy. Non-policy kind of existed by default. And this allowed these users to get into Cloud. And then it was about right. How can I get back now to those resources that I need. Some of those resources are in ring Cloud right on here, what do I need to do? Some back on the private health network, some back at their sites? So it’s about how can we now quickly bind that together? And of course, that’s where we’ve got involved with a lot of health agencies and a lot of companies as well because it’s something that ultimately we specialise in. So it was about how quickly can we do this? How security can we do this? And it’s worked well.
ANDREW MCLEAN [00:13:18] Well, it’s some I mean VDIs are really one some familiar with the virtual desktop infrastructure, the ability, and you can correct me if I’m wrong here, just but the ability to essentially control desktops from a farm, a server farm. And people can access them from home using a computer could be locked down with RSA keys. There’s lots of ways of getting into it, depending on how it’s set up. But essentially is a desktop that follows you everywhere. Is that still the case with VDI?
JUSTIN DAY [00:13:51] Yeah, pretty much. Let’s say it is exactly that. And, you know, it can be. It’s about the fact that it can be spun up, spun down, scaled, and that’s where it’s changed from what people have historically seen as well as that Cloud leverage.
ANDREW MCLEAN [00:14:06] Oh, yeah. I mean, I know we spoke briefly about it before. I said it wouldn’t talk too much about it because you’re not the techie that has built the every pinpoint on it. But I mean, VDI was a really interesting one. You know, it’s been going around, far as back as 2003. I remember terminal services and then the Citrix things happened and it evolved and it evolved and evolved. And there was that discussion. Well, you know, last decade, at least last early last decade that the idea of VDI would was a stop gap between that and the Cloud. A bit like the public Cloud was a stopgap between that and get rid of all your infrastructure. And it never quite happened. It was really interesting because I’ve seen a huge resurgence in VDI and I’ve seen more adoption within it. And I suspect the reason for that is some of the things you’ve said. Connectivity is there. The infrastructures are now better. The ability to be able to get on it is better. And most importantly, security, security, security has improved tenfold in like 15 years. So, yeah, it doesn’t surprise me that you’ve had a big uptake in that suddenly because it’s some ways you need a corporate network. You can’t you can’t really have someone going around. So people have dragged out laptops from their garage. You can’t have a I.T. guy going around installing all the applications. So, yeah, I mean, VDI is the most sensible thing to do.
JUSTIN DAY [00:15:44] I think there’s, um, you know, so we were talking before, I think technology has had a huge cultural shift across the board in the last 5 to 10 years. You know, people are making decisions, different decisions based on different risk appetites. You know, the thought of Cloud vs you know, even the concept of public Cloud vs putting everything that you own in an on a non-premise data centre. It would have been alien several years ago. But I think what’s interesting as well as a lot of people think of virtual desktops as old, like you say, old time. Services and a thing called. They think of their user experience. And historically, the user experience with terminal services has been terrible. You know, everyone knows about painting the graphics on with the mouse cursor, because things are just coming through as you move the mouse around. And people don’t want to go back to that. And what I think is you’ve had such a gap of people who have just never experienced that. If I was hazarding a guess. Probably people south of about 35 years old, roughly. And, you know, these are people now who are in a position to make these decisions and can see that this is a technology that is driven by Cloud. And it’s not something that they have this baggage of. Oh my God. I know what that used to look like behind them. So I think Yeah. That plays a big part into this as well.
ANDREW MCLEAN [00:17:08] So gonna put your fortune teller hat on now Justin a lot of speculation. A lot of conversations around what the future workplace is going to look like. Following not just following the pandemic, but following in the next period where things social distancing. Some people are closing offices, I keep speaking to people to say, well, you know, we’re not going to renew. At least this working from home thing is working for us. Whatever it is now, what kind of advice. What do you think a future workplace will look like? And when I ask this question, particularly because of the way projects are working, I’ve seen a big rise in projects starting up and closing down. People actually moving things to the front of the queue, you said that VI interesting. And I’ve heard about so many different things that you’d think projects would be on hold but actually, now is the time to start building projects. So workforce’s and contractors have gone up and down and up and down. So if we open workplaces, what do you think it will look like? And how can we think about this in terms of speed. As in speed of getting infrastructure up and about security as well, which is an important thing, which I think was overlooked in the initial rush to get everybody working from home. The security was kind of second. Now, we’ve had some time of course, there you go there’s a big question for you.
JUSTIN DAY [00:18:37] Yeah, yeah. There’s a lot of big questions, I think. Firstly, the answer has to be it has to be balance. And secondly, I think we need to stop believing. I think a lot of people are pretty good for this, stop believing that this is something new. What I mean by this, is I think this is a way that we were moving towards anyway. Now, it might have been 12 months, 24 months, 5 years. Whatever. I don’t think it’s a whole you know, it’s just coming from left field. So I think we were we were treading in that direction anyway. It is then about balance, and the balance of what remote working looks like and what office working looks like. And I’ve taken recently to trying to abandon the word remote. Because remote infers that there has to be a centre somewhere and you’re not at it. Where for companies like us, who you know, it’s easier for us because we were smaller with 20 people with, you know, only a few years old. We’re built to be everywhere and anywhere. It doesn’t make any difference whatsoever. I think it is about balance. You’ve got the human element, which I do still think even though you solve things like Teams and Zoom and lots of web camming and all that has been very, very successful. People do their best work when they face to face. That’s the reality. People need people. That’s a reality. But what we need from a tech perspective, ideally, is something that facilitates all of that, because that becomes the human element, the human side. How can I look off to my people to get the best output. The right thing for me, which is why I have really got quite excited about this opportunity to see VDI pushed forward. Bear in mind, we come people, not with VDI people. Is I love the concept of there is no more remote. It’s the old concept, architectural concept of bring your own device. You have what you have. We now build the farm that becomes the edge. This is the new workplace. So what every employee you go to. Here’s the edge of our workplace. Everything we do, we build. We secure, we know is here. It’s scalable. Say it’s secure within our own parameters, within the parameters of what a Cloud provider we’re using. It’s consistent. That’s also one of the missing things with security. This offers that opportunity to those who want to go to an office. Because they could still bring their own device, use it. An Internet access link and out they go and they curl round to the front of VDI or they can be at home or they can be abroad. This is why I think it will start to look like. And I think that flexibility that is offered down once you get that tech nice and centralised, consolidated and everyone’s happy with how that looks. It could just sweep as an architectural position across industry, all verticals. And then you can really start to focus on how you get the best out of individuals. But it opens up that talent pool as well. You know, one of the first things we were talking to a couple of companies about was they kind of had this epiphany that they don’t need to just employ people within a certain town or city they can expand now. And that’s not just small town saying I can dip into the London talent pool. That’s London going. Well, hang on a minute. As brilliant people out in the, you know, the far reaches of this country and they’re part of what we’re creating here. So, yeah, it’s definitely a two pronged attack. It’s cultural, there’s technical. But I love what that consistent technical approach can get by. Yeah. Bringing everything into that sort of central, consolidated, secure hub.
ANDREW MCLEAN [00:22:31] Okay. So Justin is going to lead me nicely on my next question. And I’m not picking on you. I ask everybody the same question. Cloud Gateway, how have you found, as a company, not knowing your customers yourself. How have you found the whole lockdown?
JUSTIN DAY [00:22:50] Yeah, that’s a fair question. I am. We as a company have found it reasonably easy to deal with because, say, about 2/3 of all of our people out of the group of 20 people work remotely slash from home anyway. For people like me who live in Norfolk but spend 3 or 4 days a week in London, it’s given me a beautiful run of time at home, which I wouldn’t traditionally have. I feel much better. I think as a company, collectively, we’ve been even more productive than we’ve ever been. I am aware that doesn’t translate quite so easily to other other other companies, other sized companies. But for us, the truth is it’s been pretty, pretty good.
ANDREW MCLEAN [00:23:43] No, but at the same time, the consensus I’ve heard is certainly for companies of 20 employees that are in the technology space, that the ability to do a lot of things remote was there. And in some ways, it’s kind of, again, it’s like pushing projects forward. It’s pushed this idea forward. And it in fact, some of them have never been busier, not just because they’ve got customers that want new things or I wanted to change things because of the change situations. But it’s also thought, well, how can we change something? So let’s think about what the world can look like in 6 months time. How can we think? Well, you spoke with VDI, for example. It could be, I don’t know your business, but it could be like 6 months ago your like, yeah, we will keep you pushed VDI but you know, it’s not going to you know, it’ll be like our other services. Then suddenly we are like, well, how can we tweak this or how can we do this and how can we do that? I think it is an interesting time in some ways, and I could see why a lot technology companies have been busy as a result.
JUSTIN DAY [00:24:45] Oh, definitely. I mean, it is no lie to say that we have been more productive in-house, as we have with actually gaining new customers. I mean in-house and it’s got nothing to do with, you know, people’s effort or work rate. It’s at times we’ve taken a step back and not been able to answer quite how it’s happened, organically happened. But, you know, we found ourselves communicating better and more often as well. You know, that’s a big thing. You know, people are constantly talking, communicating where I think, again, this is why I’m trying to get away from this word remote, because I think about remote fields like Silo. And it’s not, it’s just not. And another thing that’s been, you know, easier for people to kind of absorb is when everyone is forced to do it, then you’re, you know, you know, because you do bounce off other companies, your friend and then you’ve just got this great dataset to see how people are dealing with it. Yeah, it’s been very interesting, very productive.
ANDREW MCLEAN [00:25:55] I mean, I sometimes used to struggle getting people to be interviewed because they’d never been on camera before, though. I’m not so sure that the whole thing. Well, you know, you’d be fine. But I think now that everybody’s using the Zooms, Teams, whatever, whatever other choices are available. They’ve just been like i’ll do it. So, yeah, it’s different. And yeah, people are a bit more forgiving. It used to be if someone was remoting in, they would get everything perfect and now it’s like I’ve got my background and I’ve got my things in the back. Yeah, well you probably hear dogs barking because everybody’s kind of in the same boat. And yeah, it’s been a very different, very different vibe. So I’ve got to ask you a couple of quickfire questions around Cloud Gateway. Just as we finish off the interview segment on this. So you said, oh, a few years ago that this, this, this, this. Why did you actually create Cloud Gateway?
JUSTIN DAY [00:26:49] Why do we actually create Cloud Gateway? Genuinely we wanted to make a difference, I wanted you know part my MO is I get to almost hold telcos to account. I want, I don’t think that they have done enough or shown enough desire. And we don’t actually compete, ironically with telcos. I want customers to feel in control. And comms, I don’t want comms. I come from a background, you know. I don’t want to turn out the other side when I’m 60 years old and go, oh, yeah, I worked in comms, yeah the crap that I.T. that almost talk about. No, I want people to recognise you. I want people to know it doesn’t have to be that way. I want people to make, you know, think that this is actually an enabling foundation of our entire infrastructure and our business and so that’s what we want to do.
ANDREW MCLEAN [00:27:46] So the hardest thing for any CEO to answer is the question, what does your company do? So here’s the question. If I was calling you up and saying, how does your platform help me? Can you summarise how Cloud Gateway helps my business?
JUSTIN DAY [00:28:04] Yeah, you’re right. That is the question, what’s the elevator pitch?
ANDREW MCLEAN [00:28:10] What’s the elevator pitch? Yeah, you’re by far, I think almost all companies are the same. So I put you on the hot seat. What’s your elevator pitch? Go for it.
JUSTIN DAY [00:28:21] Yeah. We provide a platform that is built on the Cloud and ultimately for the Cloud that allows you to securely connect from where you want, to where you need to connect in a way that suits you at a pace that suits your business.
ANDREW MCLEAN [00:28:39] Beautiful, beautiful and succinct. I love it. Okay. So we’ve done the interview. Now you can. You can relax. You can start drinking the gin or whatever it is you’ve got in front of you. I got to ask you about your background. What is in the background?
JUSTIN DAY [00:28:54] What is in the background where you did. You did allude to this. This is as you say people don’t mind just sitting at home and being stay. So behind me are three pinball tables. I’m in a building that I’m lucky enough to have dedicated to being effectively an arcade. I was a child dragged through, lovingly, I adored in the 80s arcade and through a video game background. And now I’m grown up, “grown up” I get to have those kind of toys.
ANDREW MCLEAN [00:29:26] Okay, well and your T-shirt?
JUSTIN DAY [00:29:29] Yeah. These are the characters from, in my opinion, the greatest video game of all time. The 1986, Taito classic, Bubble Bobble. There you go.
ANDREW MCLEAN [00:29:39] Okay, so with that in mind, I have a quiz for you. And it is an arcade machine quiz. I stole this off the Internet, so you’ll give me credit because I just have to pick a random. Gonna ask you some questions. Let’s see if you know the answer. What was the very first commercial video arcade game Arcade Machine? Was it Pong, asteroid or Computer Space? Or look at this. Look at this.
JUSTIN DAY [00:30:11] So everything tells me that it’s Pong, which is 1976. But I think the answer is Computer Space.
ANDREW MCLEAN [00:30:20] Correct! Well done! A round of applause, it’s brilliant. If I had an audience or I mean something like that. Question number 2 this so should be easy for you. So Pacman, it’s got ghosts for ghosts. One of them is called Inky. One of them’s called Blinky. One was called Pinky. But what’s the 4th one called? Is it Denki? Clyde? Or Blue?
JUSTIN DAY [00:30:49] So it’s the Orange Ghost and it’s Clyde.
ANDREW MCLEAN [00:30:52] Let’s check. Let’s check. Let’s check my random… wait a minute. It is Clyde! Well done. You are doing very well. You’ve seen this quiz before. Okay, skip that one. So before I even. I know the answer this one. But before Mario there was Donkey Kong? Luigi? Or Sonic?
JUSTIN DAY [00:31:18] Donkey Kong.
ANDREW MCLEAN [00:31:21] Yes, you’re absolutely right. I remember having it on one of those little flip up things. Why is it called Donkey Kong?
JUSTIN DAY [00:31:30] Well, there’s a belief that this was a mispelling of monkey Kong that came from Japan. That’s actually false.
ANDREW MCLEAN [00:31:38] Is it false?
ANDREW MCLEAN [00:31:40] Yes, Donkey Kong is Shigeru Miyamoto’s first outing in Nintendo, and he meant it as effectively the Japanese translation with different meanings, dumb.
ANDREW MCLEAN [00:31:57] Which is the highest-grossing Arcade game of all time? Was it Mortal Combat? Pacman? Or Space Invaders?
JUSTIN DAY [00:32:10] So the go to would be… Space Invaders. But I think actually I’m going to go with Pacman.
ANDREW MCLEAN [00:32:17] You are correct. It is Pacman. I have 2 more questions to go. You’re nearly through your nearly three. You’ve got. You’re doing very, very well. This one’s a bit contentious. Tetris, we all know Tetris. I had it on a Gameboy that was actually my sisters, but I stole it in 1991, so sure made. Tetris theme song was actually a Russian folk song from a saucy street about a saucy street vendor. True or false?
JUSTIN DAY [00:32:46] I believe that’s true.
ANDREW MCLEAN [00:32:48] Oh, let’s have a look, it’s true. I mean, in fairness, it’s a little bit of a leap to ask that question and not to be true. The final question and this ties nicely into your tshirt. Which classic that’s not the answer by the way, I’m gonna tell you answers, 3 choices. Okay? So that wasn’t me giving you a hint or a clue. Which classic arcade character speech is randomly generated by its games, sound chip? Is it Bob from Bubble Bubble, your T-shirt? Was it Yoshie from Super Mario World or was it Cuba from Cuba?
JUSTIN DAY [00:33:31] It’s definitely Cuba.
ANDREW MCLEAN [00:33:33] It was indeed. Well done. Round of applause and your prizee is you get to send me one of your pinball machines. Now I really look forward to it in the mail. I’ll see if I can get in through the letterbox. Justin, you’ve been an absolutely fantastic guest. Thank you for your time and thank you for your extra extra beyond Cloud knowledge of arcade machines, you’ve been a fantastic guest. Thank you.
JUSTIN DAY [00:33:59] Thanks so much.
ANDREW MCLEAN [00:34:01] And that was just one day the CEO and Co-Founder at Cloud Gateway telling us about interesting for me because I played in this game before, VDI of course, Cloud where Cloud technology is going, how it’s changed due to this lockdown and where the future workplaces might be. Time is coming up to 5 minutes past this 1, on Wednesday, the 3rd of June 2020. You’ve been watching me, Andrew McLean, and don’t forget, you can see us weekdays on Disruptive LIVE at the same time on our website, disruptive.live, on LinkedIn, on Facebook, on Twitter and YouTube and a couple of other places I can’t even remember. #DisruptiveLIVE until tomorrow. I’ll see you soon.